Author Topic: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?  (Read 207930 times)

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #615 on: July 24, 2008, 05:56:03 pm »
Right, but I guess what my point is, is that the self-loathing and overwhelming desire to change our bodies seems to go hand in hand with the culture of vanity in which external appearances are valued above internal humanity. You are free to disagree, but I myself have had the thought that I "should" get a nose job or a tummy tuck, and having that thought led me to hatred... literal hatred and disgust... at the saggy belly and big nose biology has given me.

But does that make the loathing and disgust natural and inherent? I personally don't think so.

We live in a society where the drive toward medical intervention now kills more infants than it saves every year, and yet most people in the medical community refuse to recognize it. Just because something is medically or surgically possible does not make it good, yet for many it DOES make it desirable. See how that works?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 05:57:41 pm by Nigel »
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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #616 on: July 24, 2008, 05:58:34 pm »
Yeah, but a tummy tuck and a nose job doesn't change a fundamental aspect of your identity.

Gender is sliiiiightly more all-encompassing than that.
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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #617 on: July 24, 2008, 05:59:17 pm »
Quote
We live in a society where the drive toward medical intervention now kills more infants than it saves every year, and yet most people in the medical community refuse to recognize it.

:cn:
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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #618 on: July 24, 2008, 05:59:26 pm »
Quote
I have read that a lot of transmen (am I using this correctly?) have the top done but never actually finish the bottom.  i wonder if that is because phalloplasty seems like a nasty business or for other reasons.  Only transman i have know didn't finish bottom.

It's also expensive as hell and there's a somewhat high possibility of things going wrong (like, "omg i can't pee or feel anything" wrong).

I understand all of the arguments for GRS in modern Western society, but transgendered people have existed for the entirety of human existence, and in cultures which accepted trans people as a third or fourth gender, there are no such reports of disgust with one's natural body, and to me that speaks volumes.

From my perspective, and I don't want to get all woo-woo on you here but it's not an uncommon view from people raised in native American religions, it's sad and a waste when people feel they have to destroy such a rare gift by changing their outside bodies.

I say this despite knowing many trans people and supporting their decision to choose surgery in order to make them happy in the here and now... I just feel that requiring surgery for this happiness is something that our society has coerced.

The thing is, most trans people aren't a third gender. Androgynous/neutrois people are quite happy with that state of being, which is why they don't tend towards bottom surgery (though I know one neutrois person who recently had surgery to turn their penis into a blank spot with a place to pee + a clit, which they were pretty happy with.) Transsexuals, however, just want to be seen as a man or a woman. While you're right in that there definitely is something of a gift in being able to experience aspects of both sexes/genders, it's not a gift to have the wrong set of genitals, nor is it a gift to be viewed as something you're not. Adding a bit of personal perspective here: I don't want to be seen as a part of some "third gender." I'm a girl. I'm not feminine/female in every respect, and I'm comfortable with bending genders, but I'm still a pretty normal, everyday girl. Being treated like some special, mythical door number 3 isn't going to make me happy, but will just encourage me feeling singled out and marginalized as either an object of pity or scorn.

And most therapy related to gender identity issues these days aims to make people happy and comfortable with their own bodies before they try to change anything. In fact, the medical "gatekeepers" tend to view anxiety/depression resulting from gender dysphoria as a sign of mental illness and enough reason to delay/prevent treatment. Generally if things work out right, SRS isn't being done "to make them happy" so much as it's just a way to make it easier to get comfortable in their own body.
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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #619 on: July 24, 2008, 06:07:43 pm »
Right, but I guess what my point is, is that the self-loathing and overwhelming desire to change our bodies seems to go hand in hand with the culture of vanity in which external appearances are valued above internal humanity. You are free to disagree, but I myself have had the thought that I "should" get a nose job or a tummy tuck, and having that thought led me to hatred... literal hatred and disgust... at the saggy belly and big nose biology has given me.

But does that make the loathing and disgust natural and inherent? I personally don't think so.

Tummy tuck/nosejob = purely cosmetic alteration of something which isn't very significant.

SRS = alteration of something our culture, since the very beginning, sees as THE symbol of one's gender identity. It's a little more fulfilling than getting a different nose or belly.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #620 on: July 24, 2008, 06:11:18 pm »
Quote
We live in a society where the drive toward medical intervention now kills more infants than it saves every year, and yet most people in the medical community refuse to recognize it.

:cn:

"The American Way of Birth" by Jessica Mitford

Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.



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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #621 on: July 24, 2008, 06:12:34 pm »
Right, but I guess what my point is, is that the self-loathing and overwhelming desire to change our bodies seems to go hand in hand with the culture of vanity in which external appearances are valued above internal humanity. You are free to disagree, but I myself have had the thought that I "should" get a nose job or a tummy tuck, and having that thought led me to hatred... literal hatred and disgust... at the saggy belly and big nose biology has given me.

But does that make the loathing and disgust natural and inherent? I personally don't think so.

Tummy tuck/nosejob = purely cosmetic alteration of something which isn't very significant.

SRS = alteration of something our culture, since the very beginning, sees as THE symbol of one's gender identity. It's a little more fulfilling than getting a different nose or belly.

I understand that and I'm not trying to trivialize reassignment surgery. I'm just pointing out that often the desire for something corresponds to it's availability, as well as the cultural perception of it's appropriateness.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.



All that goodness, with a frozen chicken in the middle.
― Doktor Howl, 2014

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #622 on: July 24, 2008, 06:13:11 pm »
Anyway, I'm not that interested in arguing this, because I don't care about changing anyone's mind. I shared my perspective, that's all I wanted to do.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.



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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #623 on: July 24, 2008, 06:15:51 pm »
Quote
We live in a society where the drive toward medical intervention now kills more infants than it saves every year, and yet most people in the medical community refuse to recognize it.

:cn:

Indeed.


However, to be fair, my mom told me of an incident in which she had to tell a pregnant woman to GTFO of the hospital because the greedy-ass surgeon wanted to perform the cesarean section before he went on vacation... never mind that the baby wasn't due for weeks.

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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #624 on: July 24, 2008, 06:20:19 pm »
Quote
We live in a society where the drive toward medical intervention now kills more infants than it saves every year, and yet most people in the medical community refuse to recognize it.

:cn:

"The American Way of Birth" by Jessica Mitford

I couldn't find anything relevant with a quick google search, just a wikipedia article on other books by her, and a review calling her a "communist muckraker".

So, uh... anything else?
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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #626 on: July 24, 2008, 06:26:48 pm »
Yes, I know where to go to buy it, but the Amazon site doesn't give details, stats, graphs, or any of the rest of it.
LMNO
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Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

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"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #627 on: July 24, 2008, 06:27:38 pm »
There's actually been a lot written about this, Dr. Bradley, the Sears', etc.

The US has the highest infant mortality rate of the first world, and the main correlation, which many doctors and health experts believe is also causation, is the highest rate of C-section and other medical interference to the birth process. Poor nutrition is also a heavy contender, though.

As they say, give a small boy a hammer and everything looks like a nail.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.



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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #628 on: July 24, 2008, 06:28:41 pm »
Yes, I know where to go to buy it, but the Amazon site doesn't give details, stats, graphs, or any of the rest of it.

I'm sorry, I didn't get my information online, I got it from books when I was studying to be a childbirth coach.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.



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Re: Unofficial What are you Reading Thread?
« Reply #629 on: July 24, 2008, 06:33:56 pm »
Is that in comparison to historical mortality rates, or to "developing nations" or just to other "first world" countries?
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