What is this section about (n00bs read this!)

[Cain]

Well, you could always post them here for consultation.  I think some editing is necessary, if only to highlight the central themes more.

[Misery's Feed Trough]

You have my endorsement for whatever its worth. 

[Triple Zero]

I keep getting these urges to do a major editing job on the original BIP pamphlet, but I feel really weird about fucking around with someone else's writing.

I know it's mostly kopyleft, but still.  I'd hate to make some revisions & piss off the original author.

just do it.

if you end up pissing somebody off you can always try to come to an agreement or just revert that one text to its original state (or leave it out, and write something similar yourself, etc)

[Dags]

This is part of why I registered back in here. BIP. Is this a HIMEOBS OP or what? Combining efforts? Woah.

I ask because of the Johnny Project over in the other thread mentions HIMEOBS. Isn't the power of HIMEOBS in that we don't talk about HIMEOBS?-heh

Where is Fnord? Gone, name changed or name the same, changed user so Fnord is not Fnord but someone else as Fnord then name changed to? What? Maybe I shouldn't ask... anyways.

Impressive effort. I look forward to checking this out as I have time.

- Dags

[LMNO, PhD (life continues)]

BIP came about as an attempt to re-examine aspects of the PD in a more modern context.  It's still evolving.  It also has a wiki:
http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Main_Page

[Misery's Feed Trough]

BIP and HIMEOBS are separate OPs but sometimes we go to the same conventions.   

[Dags]

I'm trying to revisit discordianism in general myself to piece meal together what I'm missing regarding the aims and such whatsoever and ruminating over the unthinking mind.

A link of interest maybe. Unskilled and Unaware of It.  I'd almost rate it as a must read but I guess I'd say
that about a lot of things so don't take my word on it. Check it out if you will.

When I think of the unthinking; It get's perplexing and strange. I don't know why?

In regards to giving people answers? I don't know. Your not getting them to think in this way. Let's say for example; I'm an atheist. I convince a christian to become an atheist too. I just give him answers and he takes them and believes them all lock, stock and barrel. Without giving it much thought; Then I have done him a great disservice. He is no better off now than as a Christian.

He is still accepting blindly what he is told by someone he looks up to, feels is an authority or it just seems fashionable these days to be an Atheist. Poor example I know.. right? Bandwagoners of the world unite!

Well for myself; I wouldn't want to convince an christian to become an atheist. I would however like to encourage a christian to revisit his beliefs and combine that with some critical thinking skills not to become an atheist per se but to use the mind that he believes God gave him. Personally I never aimed at becoming an atheist I just wanted to know the truth about certain things... unfalsifiable things I now realize them to be.

So something like that and not saying BIP does this or doesn't to any extent. Poisoning of the well aside I still maintain my approval of it on the basis of my percieved intentions of it; To get people thinking enough to be able to read damn near anything whatsoever with a questioning mind. Though skepticism taken too far is it's own solipsist nightmare.

As far as scope and purpose being taken into consideration I can only imagine the BIP represents a lot of work by those who have contributed to it. I have thought of doing similiar things in an attempt to unlock some minds but thusfar nothing much. I would however like to point those working on this to the introduction of the skeptic's dictionary which may cover a lot of instances regarding motivation for such things.... intro to the skeptics dictionary   and an oldy but goody at least I think so .... the truth will make you free.

I have however no plans to try and dissect and comment on BIP specifically because I don't feel any need to do so other than to say Fucking Rah! I love the mindfuckery so much... but maybe that's just me and others like me.

A maybe here perhaps but in regards to the prison theme and such I'd like to submit one of Goya's works of art for consideration; age aside I can only doubt copyright involvement though this is a cropped version. Used to be my sig for a while.



Now I must consume pizza. Way too much I haven't even began to read here and enjoy. Just gone for a year is all. Damn. Back... umm.. pizza.

Anywho a note to add regarding people being lazy; without generating enough interest or the expectations of a payoff for time served... so to speak; I wouldn't expect anything less. I would however like to be able to say without producing a defensive posture by those who ' already have ' such dedication. If you get to a point when it's a matter of you sacrificing and being the messiah. Please by all means. Stop and re-evaluate.-heh Don't be a messiah. I have no illusions I won't save the world nor intend to. My eyes are open.
Sounds serious doesn't it. Perhaps it is the most serious thing in the world.-meh

Watch the Donnie Dorko (sic) move and see if you get the meaning of ' I'm starting to doubt your committment to sparkle motion '; man I love that line. So yeah invite me to a convention or something because if the unthinking mind is an enemy of yours then your definitely a friend of mine. So it's the weekend, pizza and drinks, movies and music. Friends, warmth, a full belly, volumes of things unread and undiscovered. What more do I require? I don't think I ask for much here and nothing really. Just perhaps to contribute something before my orbital path takes me away from here. Oh and Fuck Yeah Mantis! I see your still around man. If you ever got that soundcard to work check out the noise I linked in teh Library. Enjoy! and to all a good night.

OK! Everyone take a month's vacation or something. Fuck.  

- Dags



 

[Adios]

I never wanted to convert anyone to anything. If thought can be presented in an intelligent and open ended conversational way then the goal of "Think for yourself" is achieved. Standing behind a pulpit and screaming will close ears faster than anything in the world.

[Dags]

No fair I wasn't done with my tenth editing of that post yet.-heh

But from a pulpit they do scream and shout and spit and the ears don't seem turned off of it. Who ever heard of a cult leader that didn't stand up and preach it?  What's a church without a pulpit?

If you have never wanted to convert someone to being something more than what they are now what does that say? Conversion isn't necessarily a bad thing per se just that in doing so by force or by authority and such motivated by Extrinsic ( external force applied ) vs. by Intrinsic ( internal psychological pressures usually by way of cognitive dissonance ) you have done a person a disservice by supplying answers when the idea is to motivate a person to follow their own reasoning or arrive at their own answers by way of their own reasoning. Wake up the mechanics of their own mind. You can't expect someone that hasn't developed their abilities to reason to think critically no more than expecting a couch potato to run a marathon? Maybe something like that or something. So fuck?

As you say ' think for themselves ' though one can hardly say they would try and reason with a child that was headways into running out in front of traffic. At least a person with any empathy or moral turpitude. Funny word that one. Anyways.... Instead would use force ( lifting the child up and taking them from harms way ) it's actually a difficult subject to approach for many reasons. Intervention? More to think about.

Also maybe your right. Maybe I said it was bad to convert people and maybe I didn't. I can't however say I haven't wanted to convert people... actually I have converted people. So fuck you know I've done that and maybe worse.

I would disagree and say maybe the fastest way to close someone ears in the context that you've said is to put them on the defensive. Be it any person and I think it's pretty natural and even in some instances a good thing that people go on the defensive. If you've changed worldviews then you realize the psychological pressure involved. It can be maddening and for some leads to suicide. It can be something to witness too!

The persistence of beliefs is in place for a reason you may know them already but I wouldn't expect a person to change their worldviews overnight; practically unheard of... absent force or a well trained deprogrammer I think they are called that helps people escape a cults brainwashing. All pretty interesting shit to me but hell what do I know? Maybe screaming IS the answer.  Alright then. I used the smoking laughing funny hat guy so you know I totally just typed this up real fast. You may see a lot of that. But hey!

What you said sounds good to me. Lots of ways to perceive what someone thinks they said compared to the decoded version response but I hope I don't come across as having any particular answers. Plus as long as it takes me to say... what I get (large amounts of interconnecting data) when thinking about something. I can only imagine a lot of it gets lost in translation and I can probably attribute that to the lengths that I will go to..... to say very little and elaborate way too much.

I haven't a clue what you understand from what I'm saying and I think there is much to learn from the short volume of information contained in the links from that last post. However, from your response it seems you feel I accused you of something... I know it might sound strange but that's what it seemed like? Weird right?

Well I have converted people and if I do so with little or no effort on their part to at least question any of what I say... then they weren't thinking about it too much were they?

Wow. Where does the time go? Think harder. Think until your head hurts and then think some more. What is it about thinking that makes it such an unpopular activity? I think I'll go think about that for a while.

- Dags

note: I put very little thought into this post. Srsly. Check the time stamp.

[Adios]

If I thought you accused me of something it would be in plain print and easily understood. I was merely giving my recently learned lesson. As one here very aptly put it, sometimes screaming is preaching to the choir. The choir already knows the scripture. At this point rather than preach to the choir, I would rather learn from them. Some do have the unnatural to get others to listen when they scream. I don't. I prefer to work within my limitations.

Also, when 20 words will do, 100 aren't necessary.

[Dags]

Well I don't know Hawk. I mean indoctrination and conversion are different things. Mainly in the non-critical aspect of blindly leading the blind; so to speak. If you had a choice of the two would you rather be part of a group that favors indoctrination or works at converting people. Maybe like I said to convert people to being more than what they are now?

Mark Twain is known to have said 'Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold.' Since people aren't born with either FE or AU stamped on their foreheads it's not so easy to tell which is what and how far a person can go or even for a person themselves to know the limits of what they can be.

Funny how I couldn't stand it not to say what I did in the little note at the end of the post and your saying when 20 words will do... again makes me feel like you think I've accused you of not giving what I said enough thought. It must just be me in a strange way thinking that. It's all good. Am I the choir or some preacher? Who knows. I must be beyond credulity at this point since I must go I haven't the time to continue this but perhaps there is something said worth reading there if not for you someone else if not for anyone. Nothing drastic.

[Adios]

Heh, you really will learn to believe that if I have an issue with you there will be no room for doubt.

My point about the words is this, to much BS dilutes the message, Nothing less, nothing more.

As far as you being a preacher, time alone will tell. I limit my words, and feel I should use them where they are needed. Here they are not needed nearly as much as among those whose eyes still have scales on them. And removing scales is a delicate thing, not to be done with a hammer. But instead with gentleness, and understanding. Not so very long ago my eyes has scales on them. No one can understand like a n00b what will or will not move people.

As far as conversion goes, the right ones will always find their own way to the light. The rest are just chaff in the wind and should be treated as such. It isn't about numbers, it's about the right kind of numbers. A flash in the pan is only good for a very short time. A slow burning heat will do a lot more cooking.

I see you are newer here than me. A friendly piece of advice. Look, listen, and learn before you decide to teach. As I said, a friendly piece of advice.

[Dags]

That's a good example then of what I mean. How could you know I've been posting here
off an on since 2005? That doesn't matter though regarding what I'm saying at least to
me it doesn't. What is the truth regarding if I'm a n00b here and such? Is the forum lying
and why trust me. Am I lying about this? To you I'm a perfectly soon to be fucked n00b.
That's great fine and good but is it true? What do you think?

However if BIP is meant to be propagated then it's meant to be propagated for a reason.
I'm glad you brought it up actually and whether it's accusations or not regarding
conversion being something one might ought to do or whatnot. Doesn't matter I can go
all fucking off into a blissful sea of non-sensical jibberish if I want to. It's not very hard to
do. BIP is my focus here however I'm open to suggestions regarding whether or not I'm a
n00b. Says it plain as day don't it.

What I proposed in the first post however here contains information that I feel is dead on.  Schisms aside.

Regarding the propagation of ideas aimed at be it called whatever it may .........
so I'm glad you made your point. I think it's well worth fleshing out if it hasn't already
been done and maybe it needs to be done repeatedly. I dunno and I don't claim to know;
just sayin'.

Fucked if I'll try and post this again since I keep reminding myself I suck at
posting and not editing it too many times or deleting the whole thing somehow. If a mod
wants to un n00b me since I'm past 50 post here feel free I really don't care but it's going
to be shit explaining it 33 more post or something or another. It's interesting though
because I don't really buy into assumptions based on post counts.  Regardless given
enough interest here and enough time I'll snail my way to 50 or more post. I don't care
as long as I don't piss off fluffy get fed to fluffy or or actually damn near anything fluffy
related.-heh

File it under additional options or somethign who knows maybe something tehn.

- Dags

[LMNO, PhD (life continues)]

I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

[Misery's Feed Trough]

Personally, I don't really think BIP has anything to do with religion.  I also don't think Discordianism has anything to do with religion, at least on a personal level.  To me it's philosophy.  It's another guide, another set of fingers pointing the way.  But in this case of the BIP, the finger is always pointing back at you.