Author Topic: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."  (Read 15539 times)

LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2008, 06:48:08 pm »
Hence, the tendency for Maybe Logic to us percentages of probablity of truth, usually never quite reaching 100%.
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2008, 07:02:01 pm »
Yep, the comments here seem to fall right in line with the Maybe Logic and Model Agnostic positions.

Sidenote:

Cosmic Trigger Vol. I = One of the Best Books written by Robert Anton Wilson EVER. If you decide not to read Illuminatus! because you're just too hip as a Discordian, that's fine.... however, I highly recommend Cosmic Trigger as a must read for people interested in how Maybe Logic and Model Agnosticism can work in actual experiential reality.
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2008, 07:15:37 pm »
Again, would somebody explain 'maybe logic' to me?
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LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2008, 07:25:21 pm »
LMNO
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http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2008, 07:26:39 pm »
Did that, got nothing coherent.
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2008, 07:28:27 pm »
You're a fucking liar, you know that?
LMNO
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"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2008, 08:06:48 pm »
Again, would somebody explain 'maybe logic' to me?

A bit slow on the uptake eh?

Two Valued Logic = True/Not True
Maybe Logic = True/varying levels of don't know/Not True where most of our beliefs/perceptions/ideas etc fall into the middle.

Maybe Logic basically took the Law of the Excluded Middle, laughed at it and turned it inside out.
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2008, 08:20:10 pm »
An old dialogue:

ON E-PRIME.

I START WITH:

I'm a big fan of both e-prime and maybe logic.

to me, it's all about clarity and accuracy, to myself as well as to others.

The only problem is, it tends to make for shitty rants, and it can suck the fun out of a good joke.

I think the big problem with the "is of identity" seems not to be so much that it labels an object, but that it tends to exclude all aspects of the object that are not part of the label ("the flower 'is' red" excludes all the other aspects of flower-ness).

Also, inserting the observer as part of the observation tends to remind us that subjectivity plays a key part in most observations (and even can remind us of basic physical properties of seeing - Cf: the "Blood is blue/red" thread*).


*The thread in question reminds the reader that blood “is” not red, it <i>reflects</i> the color red, which enters your eyes and is interpreted as such, etc.

LHX:

it may be possible that e-prime still holds the trump card -


it could be said that the IS of identity has no real function anyway

since coming to this forum
i have been made aware that classifying and defining things seems to be nothing more than trifles and a cause for debate



as in
"this is a real discordian"


it always comes down to
'well - what do you mean by that'


how many different words are there for 'red'

it may be comfortable to use 'is'
but
it may also be something that is on its way out
seriously

ME:

Not on it's way out-- it has to do with the way the primate brain functions.  Labeling, categorizing-- hell, even the bible has Adam classifying things right off the bat.

humanity as a whole will probably never get over "is".  But trying to escape tends not only to be fun, but it is mildly enlightening as to how we function as humans.

Also, as Hugh will probably point out, it can be a mistake to put too much faith in simple semantic word games to lead us into bliss.  Just because you sometimes use maybe/fuzzy logic doesn't make you much better than the pinks/greys/cabbages/opiez.

LHX:

doesnt this whole thing point out that even the bible (gasp) could be subject to this fallacy?

ME:

The bible does indeed seem to be filled with this apparent fallacy (even down to YHWH’s “I am that I am.”). My point was that the tendency to name and classify things can be traced all the way to the creation myths. Even in our beloved Tiamat and Marduk story, we had Things (stuff that has been “is-ed”) separated from chaos (undefinable; Cf: the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao, etc).

THEN JPF GETS INTO THE ACT:

JPF: To return to the original topic of conversation, EP/ML seems to gives us the best possible platform to move forward logically, but does that result in knowledge becoming a probability?

ME: Yes.  Knowledge appears to be an evolving thing, and can often be hinged upon a frame of reference of a window of time.  While I “know” that my pen will fall “down” if I drop it, there is a very small chance it won’t, for various reasons.  While the percentage of that happening is infinitesimal, it still precludes my knowledge from being 100% sure.  But for me, it’s close enough that I don’t worry about it.  I feel that nothing can be known 100%, and that’s a good thing to me.

JPF: Truth as only a possibility?... and if that's so, then wouldn't the original assumption seem a possibility?

ME: Yes.  Maybe Logic/E-Prime (ML/EP) are simply game rules that we have arbitrarily assumed. (Side note: even the phrase “original assumption” implies a less-than-100% level of assuredness to begin with).  Those that find it useful, use it.  Some have decided that, for now, it’s the best set of game rules to use.  If a better one comes along, the chances are good that ML/EP will be abandoned in favor of the new rules.  ML/EP shouldn’t be thought o as “the” answer, just a set of beneficial rules.

JPF: Doesn't it erode any ultimate basis for subscribing to EP/ML since probability encompasses all probabilities? 

ME: Are you trying to do a George Bernard Shaw-style paradox?  Because it’s not working.

JPF: The benefit of EP/ML is only a possibility.  Why do we have greater confidence in EP/ML? 

ME: Because when using ML/EP, the level of opinion and prejudice is made more apparent.  ML/EP shows the degree of bias in the system.  This leads to greater clarity, though (of course), not 100%.

JPF: To what degree is our confidence greater in it than our confidence in other possibilities.  Using ML, what convinces us that ML is true(r)?

ME: There is no “truth” in ML/EP.  As said before, they are merely game rules.

JPF: In short can EP/ML convince us of any truth, itself included?
 
ME: No, because that is not its intended purpose.

Essentially, you seem to be trying to fold ML in on itself and make it implode, but ML easily encompasses itself in a very clear manner.

In addition, you seem to be saying that if we can’t get to 100% truth, then its Hassan I Sabbah time: “Nothing is true, everything is permitted.”

But that’s not what ML does. You seem to be using polar thinking on ML, “true/false”, where ML behaves more like, “not true/kinda true/more true than that/pretty awfully convinced that this is most likely true”.

Just because probably nothing can be 100% true doesn’t mean that everything is false (unless you ask a Buddhist).


JPF: As far as posssibilities are concerned, do you think that there are ways to deduce what degree of probability can be associated with any idea?

ME: So, you’re looking for a mathematical equation that will give you an exact percentage? I’m not sure there’s a catch-all formula, but if you really wanted to look, I’d suggest quantum physics as a start.

JPF: Does everything end up having an equal possibility of occuring or is there still a difference in possibilities?

What I mean is: your pen is dropping. There's an infinitesimal chance of it becoming a brown dwarf and a more likely chance of it hitting the ground. Can you measure that still? Can you say that hitting the ground has a greater chance of happening than brown dwarf-morph? If so, how do you measure that with ML?

ME: Remember, these are game rules, and therefore, arbitrary. Yes, you probably can measure the probability of pen-to-brown dwarf, but I don’t get that picky. I just say, “not fucking likely”, and carry on with my day. Not to mention, if that did happen, knowing how improbable it was will be the least of my worries.
 
JPF: “not true/kinda true/more true than that/pretty awfully convinced that this is most likely true”
-- Can we provide percentages or is thaat impossible?

ME: You can, if you’d like. I’m more subjective. The point is that it’s not a “yes/no” dichotomy, it’s a “more than/less than” evaluation.

JPF: I guess what I want to know is: if every possible scenario is still a possibility, does that mean that 100% chance (of something happening and something not happening) is divided infinitely?

ME: I don’t see why not. But much like in physics, you’ll get a large chunk of the 100% divided among a handful of things, and an extremely small fraction of a percent taken up by everything else.

JPF: I was asking specifically ABOUT the more/less thing and your last paragraph answered my question.

Finally.

ME: Wait, your whole point was whether or not a system of game rules that subjectively applies percentages of truth can be divided infinitely?






Wow, that was really stupid.










…And that, my friends, is how these sorts of things usually end.

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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2008, 08:21:58 pm »
one thought i had about formal logic, is that it's a formal mathematical system that starts out by defining True and False as axioms, and generally goes downhill from there.
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e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2008, 08:32:25 pm »
Everything I found on maybe logic with google was about the maybe logic academy.

Modern formal logic has a maybe, which is why I was so confused.  There's no concept of varying levels of probablility though.  (I've screwed around a bit with introducing a 'probably/not probably' in the past, but I know jack all about metalogic).

Edit: I screwed up, the M operator in formal logic is for 'possibly' not maybe.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 08:37:49 pm by Requiem »
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2008, 08:35:55 pm »
one thought i had about formal logic, is that it's a formal mathematical system that starts out by defining True and False as axioms, and generally goes downhill from there.

Right, this is a good case in point on model agnosticism.

If we define True and False within that model, then all the data we put on the model will be either true of false by definition.
Maybe Logic is a model. If we define True/False/Don't Know/Probably/Possibly/Unlikely/Fnord then the same data we put on this model may be true false or varying degrees of something in-between.

RAW has an exercise to exemplify this point. We collect 10 random things around the house, then we decide on an attribute say "Red", we make two piles of the items "Red" items and "Not Red" items. Then we put the piles back together and go for some other attribute, like "Soft" items and "Not Soft" items.
 
Of course, it quickly becomes apparent that not only will items get grouped together differently, but that two piles don't really do either state justice. This Pepsi can, for example might go into the "Is Red" pile, but it's not ALL red, its just got some red on it... so maybe it should go into the "Not Red" pile... but it is red... at least in spots... so... hrmmm

This same sort of two-valued process is precisely the issue with Truth in a normal Is/Is Not sort of logical system.
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2008, 08:39:01 pm »
Everything I found on maybe logic with google was about the maybe logic academy.

Modern formal logic has a maybe, which is why I was so confused.  There's no concept of varying levels of probablility though.  (I've screwed around a bit with introducing a 'probably/not probably' in the past, but I know jack all about metalogic).

Maybe Logic Academy does sort of have the market on the term, since it was developed shortly before Bob's death, it didn't make it into many (any?) of his writings, but the previous meme "Model Agnosticism" which had the same sort of logic (without a name) would probably get you more infos.

Also, what are you defining as "Modern formal logic" and how does it have a maybe?

EDIT: There are other multivalued logical systems, but I am unaware of any system called Formal Logic which is not bivalued. That is, if the logic system is based on the Law of the Excluded Middle, then it would be two-valued... are you saying that modern formal logic is no longer based on the excluded middle? That would be a very interesting claim.

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« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 08:47:33 pm by Ratatosk »
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2008, 09:00:32 pm »
...I think the big problem with the "is of identity" seems not to be so much that it labels an object, but that it tends to exclude all aspects of the object that are not part of the label ("the flower 'is' red" excludes all the other aspects of flower-ness).

Also, inserting the observer as part of the observation tends to remind us that subjectivity plays a key part in most observations (and even can remind us of basic physical properties of seeing - Cf: the "Blood is blue/red" thread*).


*The thread in question reminds the reader that blood “is” not red, it <i>reflects</i> the color red, which enters your eyes and is interpreted as such, etc.

*a lot of words*

As for red, I just have to add that not everybody even sees the same color when looking at red.  There are two proteins that form photoreceptors for red, and each views the color a little differently.
(not to mention the huge part of the electromagnetic spectrum that no human can see)

It's almost as if we are incapable of actually seeing reality for what it really is.

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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2008, 09:48:48 pm »
According to wikipedia, it started in 1937, with the current modal logic model coming out in 65.  Also, it's appparently possibly and not maybe.
The two operators added by modal logic are M (possibly) and L(necissarily).  Which has a lot of implications that I don't really feel like I can explain properly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic has a good runthrough of the two operators.

Edit: Response to the above edit, formal logic has multiple systems within it, and runs that gamut from very simple aristoltean logic all the way up to complicated stuff like second order logic and linear algebra.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 09:54:35 pm by Requiem »
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Re: "If God Wasn't Real, It Would Be Necessary to Invent Him."
« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2008, 09:55:58 pm »
As for red, I just have to add that not everybody even sees the same color when looking at red.  There are two proteins that form photoreceptors for red, and each views the color a little differently.
(not to mention the huge part of the electromagnetic spectrum that no human can see)

It's almost as if we are incapable of actually seeing reality for what it really is.

Wait, you mean the colors question actually has an answer?  Holy shit.
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