Author Topic: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden  (Read 5482 times)

LMNO

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2008, 06:48:04 pm »
Hey, that's kind of nice, RWHN.  I like it.


Motion to include all of this in the wiki.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2008, 07:21:47 pm »
Sorry, I'm not much of a poet.


Rat, I suppose it comes down to the question of what keeps you in check; what keeps you humble.

If I read you right, you use RAW’s “Cosmic Schmuck”: that even the most aware person can fall into the perspective trap.  Some around here use the “Monkey Mind” approach, that, when all is said and done, the domesticated primate will often act like... well... a domesticated primate.  In I3!, George Dorn called it the Robot, Hagbard called it the Governor, etc.

I suppose, in this manner, the fact that I say that you can never escape the BIP is my way of keeping tabs on myself, and why “jailbreak” is an ongoing process, and not a one-time thing.  Every time I break out and change my filters [reconstruction; aftermath] – every time I see the bars in my cell, and move beyond them – every time I think for myself, and not my preconceptions – it can be taken as a given that I will once again find myself in a cell of my own devising.

So, I suppose it all depends on the metaphor you decide on using.  There’s no reason to argue aesthetics in a case like this, but there is a way to offer understanding.


I agree entirely.

I guess in the end, I see the BiP as the state of not realizing you are in prison, the state of confusing your reality tunnel with Reality, that state of mind which creates the "IS/IS NOT" of dogma. Once you realize that your reality is just a perception of, or a part of Reality... and you do something about it, I see that as the Jailbreak.  For me, the occasional (common?) moments of Cosmic Schmuckiness feel like a much different thing than my Jailbreak. The Jailbreak was life altering, smacking down the robot is just a daily task ;-)

I suppose that it may well depend on the personal experience of the individual. For me, there is a very strong and hard line between the me that existed for 23 years and the me that suddenly broke out of a Black Iron Prison. Since then, I've been a Cosmic Schmuck a thousand and twenty-three times, but none of those changed my life, they just kinda annoy the piss out of me when I catch them. Perhaps that's why I have a hard time tying the metaphor in the same manner... for me the experience was so strong that I feel it needs to be represented as some major shift/change. It doesn't mean I've got enough hubris to think I am free forever (no Once Saved Always Saved). The risk of being dragged back to prison seems very real to me... going back to a single, muted view of reality could happen. Because of that, I like to consider myself currently out of prison... that way I might be more prone to stay out ;-)

To mutilate RHWN's example:

If Reality is a circle, the BiP is any number of specific, predefined shapes within that circle (the republican shape and the Democrat shape and the Catholic shape and the Atheist shape etc). We could be represented as a much smaller circle, perhaps initially inside one of the other shapes (one of the Prisons). Once we break out of that shape (Our BiP), we can float around in the really big circle, ordering and disordering, experimenting with this shape or that shape, maybe even voluntarily going into other shapes.

We're still constrained by our own little circle (the physical limits of our perceptions), but we're no longer locked inside one of those little prisons.

Of course, I think we're all saying the same thing (just ordering it differently) ;-)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

AFK

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2008, 07:31:52 pm »
But see I don't think they are predefined.  I think perhaps, to use your political party example, there may be preferred pre-defined shapes that have been developed by those parties.  But that in no way forces the individuals to conform to them.  I think there are certain elements that, in a way, can be pre-defined.  Those linked to biology and physiology.  But then you have the elements of experience and environment that can be quite malleable.

Further, I'd even argue that the biological and physiological are malleable, in as much that we humans still don't fully understand our own biology.  The fact that through brain research we still haven't concretely nailed down when the brain stops developing speaks to that malleability. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2008, 08:02:54 pm »
But see I don't think they are predefined.  I think perhaps, to use your political party example, there may be preferred pre-defined shapes that have been developed by those parties.  But that in no way forces the individuals to conform to them.  I think there are certain elements that, in a way, can be pre-defined.  Those linked to biology and physiology.  But then you have the elements of experience and environment that can be quite malleable.

I think we may have had a disconnect here. When I'm talking about these predefined shapes that people may be imprisoned in, its not as though the shape is identical for everyone. So for me (as an example):

My little circle (the physical bounds of my ability to perceive and process data) existed within the rigid, predefined shape of "Jehovah's Wittness" (lets say that its the shape of their Dogma and social rules)BiPjw. I perceived reality in a way unique from other JW's (my circle covered a slightly different area than theirs), but we all existed within the bounds of the belief system. That is, while my perspective within BiP-JWratatosk may have been unique,  I was still tied to a tiny piece of Reality. Breaking out of  BiPjw, then for me was step one, from it I was trapped in the BiPAtheist.

Eventually, I broke out of BiPAtheist (or BiP-Atheistratatosk)... and thanks to Bob and other people my brain suddenly began to grok the concept of reality-tunnels and perception etc. That, I think is THE Prison break. Some people change dogmas, trading liberal for conservative (or neo-con), but they're still trapped. Free of the BiP,  people kick dogma to the curb, they no longer see Reality, but instead the see reality?.

Quote
Further, I'd even argue that the biological and physiological are malleable, in as much that we humans still don't fully understand our own biology.  The fact that through brain research we still haven't concretely nailed down when the brain stops developing speaks to that malleability. 

Agreed, but I don't see biological and physiological constraints as BiP. From my perspective that line of reasoning seems close to the "Free will doesn't exist because we can't defy gravity" type of argument...

My goddess, here we are discussing cool and interesting philosophy without having to say fnord every two minutes... SHOCKING!!!!
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2008, 08:09:43 pm »
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from now. 

The way I understood the BIP when it was first being tossed around, is that the bars of the cell are kind of what make YOU, well YOU.  Like in the opening piece of the pamphlet.  One bar is your music collection, another someting else.  It would seem to me that biological and physiological constraints are going to inform and define you as you.  It may be subconscious, and it certainly may be difficult to impossible to impact, but I would think, nonetheless, it does impact how one navigates the world.

Indeed, I think one also has some dominion over those constraints.  To the extent that one introduces substances and chemicals that can impact biology and physiology.  To the extent that one engages in behaviors that impact biology and physiology.  For example, participating in extreme sports. 

Oh, and fnord.   :fnord:
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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2008, 08:12:06 pm »
Quote
My goddess, here we are discussing cool and interesting philosophy without having to say fnord every two minutes... SHOCKING!!!!


Indeed, did many things come to pass.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2008, 08:36:12 pm »
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from now. 

The way I understood the BIP when it was first being tossed around, is that the bars of the cell are kind of what make YOU, well YOU.  Like in the opening piece of the pamphlet.  One bar is your music collection, another someting else.  It would seem to me that biological and physiological constraints are going to inform and define you as you.  It may be subconscious, and it certainly may be difficult to impossible to impact, but I would think, nonetheless, it does impact how one navigates the world.

That might well be a useful way of looking at it.

I think mostly, for me, the prison metaphor indicates that you have no choice... no freedom... yet, most of us seem able to choose which bits of reality we keep and discard... the direction our tunnel might point in or even the scope of the tunnel.

But then, maybe that freedom is just how it feels to be a trustee in the BiP?


Indeed, I think one also has some dominion over those constraints.  To the extent that one introduces substances and chemicals that can impact biology and physiology.  To the extent that one engages in behaviors that impact biology and physiology.  For example, participating in extreme sports. 

Oh, and fnord.   :fnord:
[/quote]

- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2008, 09:20:58 pm »
the bars of the cell are kind of what make YOU, well YOU

This line kept echoing in my head after the last post... damn difficult to have a conference call with RHWN echos crashing around inside one's skull!!

This may well be the KEY difference between our perceptions.

You may see the bars as what makes you, you. I seem to see the bars as what you thought made you , you... before the jailbreak.

;-)
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2008, 09:29:22 am »
If I may say a drunken thing about the number 23 and what it means to me...

In retrospect, I became aware that the age 23 was, for me and many around me, the age at which I believed I had achieved complete enlightenment and awareness. I truly. most honesty, believed with all my brain that I had learned all, understood all, and was, for lack of a better word, "wise". I could tell anyone, The Way It Was; The Way The Universe Worked. I was the ultimate Idealist, and I was full of Ideas.

It was not terribly long after that when I realized that as much as I thought I knew, there was at least as much yet to be conceived.

So for me personally, 23 represents believing all, knowing nothing. At 36, I am even more skeptical of what I think I know, and am hopeful of learning more.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Jenne

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2008, 04:45:41 am »
That sounds pretty damned healthy to me, Nigel.

Jasper

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2008, 10:22:57 pm »
I may not know it All, but I at least have an answer for all of it.




Edit:  Upon posting, I decide to rescind the remark as that it sounded funnier in my head.

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2008, 07:51:17 am »
since i've read the BIP pamphlet...hmm has it been a year now? i dunno i kind of took it in and let it seed a little.  and as i make certain connections this is how it has come so far. 

the bars of the BIP are sort of like mile markers throughout the progression of the individual's personality.  i have a difficult time seeing the prison as a fixed unit much like how the personality is constantly changing based on new input.  to me the bars sort of color the input as it passes through.   

i THINK it was christopher s. hyatt who once said something like, "it doesn't matter what you're transcending as long as you transcend."  the crucial point to me in the whole metaphor is the jailbreak.  or rather a jailbreaking.

it was important to me to see the BIP as a method rather than a circumstance.  otherwise 'what's in it for me?' i thought.  so i thought of gurdjeff's self-remembering (a term i perfer over the simililar idea of 'mindfulness' or 'self-awareness').

in this way i tend to correspond the bars of the prison (or the various kinds of input) as markers of self-remembering as a method of awareness. the process of jailbreaking is ongoing. to always be jailbreaking drops any lust of result and keeps one aware of the process rather than some perceived goal.

being aware of the process allows one to be aware of the major and subtle paradigm shifts that take place within and allow a sort of watching.  the black iron prison then becomes a black iron lexus. you're still within the confines but at least now you have a pretty sweet ride.

in other words i think the method of the BIP is to transcend from 'black iron prison' to 'golden sphere of possibility'.

at least right now thats how it makes the most sense to me. but the seed is still a sprout and i'm quite anxious to see how it will grow.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 07:53:47 am by burnstoupee »

barumunk

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2008, 08:25:50 am »

If Reality is a circle, the BiP is any number of specific, predefined shapes within that circle (the republican shape and the Democrat shape and the Catholic shape and the Atheist shape etc). We could be represented as a much smaller circle, perhaps initially inside one of the other shapes (one of the Prisons). Once we break out of that shape (Our BiP), we can float around in the really big circle, ordering and disordering, experimenting with this shape or that shape, maybe even voluntarily going into other shapes.

We're still constrained by our own little circle (the physical limits of our perceptions), but we're no longer locked inside one of those little prisons.

Of course, I think we're all saying the same thing (just ordering it differently) ;-)

Yeah all through the thread i was seeing more sense in what rat was saying, and i feel that was the way i interpreted the BIP, but here near the end of the thread, i see that its all just in the destail, although

I think it was the eariler comment about the similarities between the BIP and the curse if the greyface, and i like the fact that there is that corrolation between the PD and BIP, which i think has been lackin till now.

I also quite like burnstoupee's idea that one transcends form the BIP to the GSP... as apposed to it just being  an "arbitrary parallell". like seeing the Prison for what it is, then realizing that you are not confined to that particular "circle"/sphere of interpretation of reality... makes it far for positive, hence the GSP.

 


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Cramulus

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2008, 08:16:57 pm »
yeah, very well said, Burns!

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Re: BIP vs Palm Tree Garden
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2012, 03:02:26 am »
BUMP because this is a great quality thread.

Also, Nigel's interpretation of 23 is pretty mint.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.