Author Topic: Forgive me for going grey...  (Read 7332 times)

Hoopla

  • gives people the beeps
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 29918
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2008, 04:18:34 pm »
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner?  It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.

I don't undertand the first line in your post. 
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." -Bob Dylan?

"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 73111
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2008, 04:23:08 pm »
Some order is necessary and some order is inherent.  

Living in a culture and society requires some level of order, otherwise you have people breaking into your house in the dark of night, stealing your things, roughing up your family, etc.  But one doesn't need to be closeminded to be civilized.  One can operate within the bounds of society and still live in a boundless universe.  

Again, if one values personal security, safety, and health, they need to have some order.  I harken back to my earlier example of raising a child.  It's not that it has to be an exact 50/50 balance.  It's that there is enough order that a person can feel safe and secure.  

Because it is that safety and security that is going to allow for an individual to contemplate and incorporate some Creative Disorder in their lives.  When one has to focus on where their next meal is coming from, how they are going to survive from day to day, they can't even begin to worry or think about ratios and proportions of order/disorder.  

So, to a certain degree, I see Order fostering Disorder.  That is, as long as one is also contemplating the distinction between the Creative and the Destructive.  
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Diseris

  • Absolute Relativist
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 2007
  • First Church of YoudontknowandIdonteitherism
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2008, 04:36:16 pm »
Yeah RWHN!

PD p.63

Quote
THE CURSE OF GREYFACE AND THE
  INTRODUCTION  OF NEGATIVISM 

      To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder. To accomplish this, one need only accept creative disorder along with, and equal to, creative order, and also willing to reject destructive order as an undesirable equal to destructive disorder.

      The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.


       POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable.

      Seek the Sacred Chao - therein you will find the foolishness of all ORDER/DISORDER. They are the same!
You didn't enjoy it you never believed it there won't be a refund you'll never go back - TMBG

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 104986
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2008, 04:43:35 pm »
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner?  It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.

I don't undertand the first line in your post. 

I don't think I can be any clearer, sorry.

Also, Joshua Norton Cabal dogma =/= my dogma, I'd like to point out, since the PD is being quoted here. Not to mention, sometimes things need to be destroyed, a point clearly overlooked in their worldview.

Hoopla

  • gives people the beeps
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 29918
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2008, 04:52:43 pm »
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner?  It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.

I don't undertand the first line in your post. 

I don't think I can be any clearer, sorry.

I don't think your first line makes sense.  Did you read it back?
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." -Bob Dylan?

"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 104986
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2008, 04:54:35 pm »
No.  Because my eyes already hurt from looking at the screen and I have about 100 more pages to read, and I'm not going to nitpick over every detail while my eyes boil in their sockets.

Hoopla

  • gives people the beeps
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 29918
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 04:56:19 pm »
nevermind then
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." -Bob Dylan?

"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

Bu☆ns

  • █ ▀█ ▀ █ ▀█▄ ▀█
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 39674
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2008, 05:08:25 pm »

i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be.  one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another.  take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge.  sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is.  all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together.  so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life?  a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.

afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not?  thats all i'm really sayin.

Diseris

  • Absolute Relativist
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 2007
  • First Church of YoudontknowandIdonteitherism
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2008, 05:16:36 pm »
Why do equate focussing on, supporting and instigating disorder with acting or thinking in a discordant manner?  It doesn't automatically follow, your analogy is false.

Yes!  Use order and intelligence to spread disorder, create and plan to bring about greater chaos.(if i get your drift)

Also, Joshua Norton Cabal dogma =/= my dogma, I'd like to point out, since the PD is being quoted here. Not to mention, sometimes things need to be destroyed, a point clearly overlooked in their worldview.


Lol, that's like saying the sunday comics is dogma.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 05:18:52 pm by Diseris »
You didn't enjoy it you never believed it there won't be a refund you'll never go back - TMBG

Iason Ouabache

  • Dark Lord of the Pit
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 77840
  • Genuine
    • View Profile
    • Twatter
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2008, 07:27:37 pm »

Yes!  Use order and intelligence to spread disorder, create and plan to bring about greater chaos.(if i get your drift)

I agree wholeheartedly. For maximum effect chaos and disorder need to be used together.  Use one to hone the other. A surgical strike is often more powerful than a bumrush.
You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
    \
┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘

PopeTom

  • Discordian Pirate
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 3810
  • Doing it for the hawt wyminz!
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2008, 09:47:44 pm »
The imposition of order causes the escalation of disorder.  Therefore by ordering somethings in your life you can help to increase the amount of chaos in the world.

Conversely though, the imposition of disorder causes the escalation of order.  So Discordians are actually just working to keep themselves in business.

-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 104986
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2008, 10:41:07 pm »
Lol, that's like saying the sunday comics is dogma.

Does it make a difference if several hundred different people quote it at you mindlessly and think they're proving a point?

Joshua Norton Cabal was just one among many, and the sooner people stop treating their writings as scripture, the better.  Yes, they're good solid reference points for many of us, but people should not feel the need to use them to try and prove something about the nature of Discordianism.

For more, see: Prince Tao, Eris von Tartarus

Diseris

  • Absolute Relativist
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 2007
  • First Church of YoudontknowandIdonteitherism
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2008, 10:53:45 pm »
Lol, that's like saying the sunday comics is dogma.

Does it make a difference if several hundred different people quote it at you mindlessly and think they're proving a point?

Joshua Norton Cabal was just one among many, and the sooner people stop treating their writings as scripture, the better.  Yes, they're good solid reference points for many of us, but people should not feel the need to use them to try and prove something about the nature of Discordianism.

For more, see: Prince Tao, Eris von Tartarus

I'll have to read that later,  I was just happy to see  place where a quote from the PD would work somewhere in this forum to at least partially explain something. 

Seeing it paraphrased made me look it up as it seemed relevant, which is pretty rare around here.

dada.
You didn't enjoy it you never believed it there won't be a refund you'll never go back - TMBG

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 104986
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2008, 10:56:53 pm »

i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be.  one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another.  take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge.  sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is.  all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together.  so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life?  a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.

afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not?  thats all i'm really sayin.

And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.

They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society.  If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level.  And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society.  Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.

The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment.  Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.

Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that.  But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion.  If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.

PopeTom

  • Discordian Pirate
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 3810
  • Doing it for the hawt wyminz!
    • View Profile
Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2008, 11:43:57 pm »
It's a fucking seesaw.

Are seesaws fun when they are balanced?

No they are not, they are fun when they are seesawing.

It's just important to keep an eye out for that fat kid who like to sit on one side and keep you dangling up in the air.

Man I hate that fat kid.
-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!