Author Topic: Forgive me for going grey...  (Read 7333 times)

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2008, 07:14:55 am »

i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be.  one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another.  take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge.  sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is.  all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together.  so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life?  a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.

afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not?  thats all i'm really sayin.

And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.

They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society.  If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level.  And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society.  Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.

The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment.  Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.

Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that.  But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion.  If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.

you know i'm kind of with you on this.  i find that on a personal level that my natural tendancy is toward order, rigidity and rules.  that 'grey' has been pushed on me so much growing up that in order for any sense of liberation i have to actively work toward an attitude of discord. i see it in that.  thats why in the original post i meantioned that, "what gets me is how it's easier to see that from the discord perspective rather than the order perspective. in fact it kills me."  but for me to even choose a place to stand i have to first look at the whole picture.  this is why i felt the need last night to step back. 

perhaps you're right about the self-centered part...althought i'm not entirely sure.  see i can imagine a viewpoint outside myself and imagine whats going on but ultimately i AM self-centered.  ultimately i can only see the world from my own fixed position and for that i know when it comes down to the bare bones of life i'm going to be looking out for #1.  so i suppose i'm not really sure how to help it. i realize when i go out i put on a nice show, being the lying, deceitful, egotistical, well hung, genuine fake that i am.  so i feel like instead i should say "fuck everyone else because i'm imbalanced."  i don't think going around telling people that one IS balanced is quite what i'm getting at. 

at the moment i just think to plant the seeds of discord in their most effective places would be to utilize the relationship between order and disorder. you get more kills with carefully aimed shots than by peppering the battlefield with bullets.  the "carefully aimed" is the order, the kills themselves are the disorder.   it seems to me that for creating a useful method out of the relationship, both sides need to be considered.  eris didn't just start throwing random apples (although that IS fun too, i'll admit that) she waited until the wedding.

toward the end of this post im wondering if there really is a disagreement of philosphy going on here but rather a disagreement about the method or style in which we partake. i can't find myself to say that you're wrong here because i see validity in your approach too.

Cain

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2008, 12:58:03 pm »
I personally think the argument being put forward is both too simplistic and too...well, wishy-washy to be accurate.  I also take great pleasure in tearing down subconscious Discordian dogma, and this is one of the things that has bugged me for a while, because it is something that seems to be repeated without much in the way of critical thought put into the argument.  My interest in international polarity and systems theory is what alerted me to the contradiction, but I'm still working on advancing a more subtle theory.  I'll reply in more detail later.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2008, 05:56:08 pm »

i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be.  one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another.  take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge.  sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is.  all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together.  so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life?  a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.

afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not?  thats all i'm really sayin.

And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.

They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society.  If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level.  And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society.  Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.

The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment.  Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.

Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that.  But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion.  If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.

Ok, put like that, I agree with you.  You changed my mind.
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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2008, 06:16:57 pm »
w00t.

I do like trying to make things fit from another perspective.

Now, for my next trick, I shall prove that the Pentagon is the holiest of all Discordian symbols.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2008, 06:47:02 pm »
I already believe that.  But, please do so anyway.
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." -Bob Dylan?

"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2008, 06:59:38 pm »
Actually, I can't.  I just made that up because I couldn't think of anything else to do at the moment.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2008, 10:18:17 pm »
i need order in my life because otherwise i wouldn't get anything done, and i would forget important stuff and get into trouble if it weren't for my very ordered (at least, i try) system of scratchbooks, lists, mobile phone reminders/alarms and my agenda. i learned a lot from that book "Getting Things Done", and frankly, i can use all the tricks available. but this is just on a personal level.

on the other hand, i agree with Cain that you don't need to be disorderly yourself if you want to cause disorder. there's a difference between acting from a "disorderly angle" and causing disorder. that's why we don't really troll or weird-out eachother on this forum (at least not much).

i dunno about "balance". it's usually a good thing, i have found. i see the paradox you're trying to point out, though. but it doesn't quite ring true to me, yet. if you say that in order to create a large-scale balance, you might need to sacrifice your balance on a personal level, that seems a littlebit scary. it makes sense, but i don't like the conclusion, so maybe the idea of "balance is good and should exist on all levels" needs re-evaluation? :)
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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2008, 01:50:50 pm »
The thing of it is, though, we are all in a position where we can actually entertain whether or not to be orderly or disorderly.  And why is that?  Because we have enough order in our lives where we are able to be well fed, clothed, sheltered.  Without order, we would not have those basic needs of life.  Maslow, to me, reinforces the idea that some order is necessary for survival.  Once physiological and security needs are met, which require a certain amount of order for them to occur, then the individual can, more easily, open up their mind to bigger issues outside of personal, biological well-being. 

But sure, when we are personally secure and we have the ability to think about it, if we find where we can help bestow the virtues of disorder, we should do so.  Creative Disorder, of course. 

Again, coming at it from a parent, I think one of the most direct ways I can have an impact is in how I raise my daughter.  To teach her about the importance of order that brings her safety and security AND disorder that will help fulfill more psychological and inner-self kinds of things.  To teach her that the world and her experiences are malleable and she doesn't have to follow any one path set before her.  And this won't just affect her.  There's the possibility of her influencing her friends and others as she grows up. 
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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2008, 02:15:18 pm »
Cain, I was thinking about this.

1.  If imposition of order creates an escalation of disorder;

2.  And if "society" is ordered;

3.  Then wouldn't "society" be creating an equal amount of disorder all by itself, without anyone's help?

Or do you consider the escalation to be something that doesn't happen of it's own accord, that disorder must be escalated externally to balance the imposition of order?

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2008, 03:53:11 pm »
And how exactly is that disorder created?  Is it through human agents who reject the narrow definition of order being enforced?  I do believe it is.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2008, 03:58:26 pm »
That's what I thought you were going to say.

And I can't really argue the point.  Sometimes I feel that when Order's Rules are increased, the inherent contradictions and conflicts breed confusion, which then crystallizes into disorder when all Rules are applied equally.

Other times, I feel that since Order and Disorder do not exponentially increase, that at some point, the Order must be dismantled from the outside.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2008, 04:02:17 pm »
It may be more helpful to think of order and disorder as being possibilities within the relations between people, at least in the sense it is being discussed here.  I have to say, it seems a sort of latent assumption that order and disorder are some sort of empheral forces locked in constant competition, and this is not only too dualist for me, its also too Platonic.  While that may, possibly be the case in a metaphysical or scientific sense, we are dealing with a different sort of order and disorder when it comes to people, and new models may help understand it better.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2008, 04:05:41 pm »
I'm all for new models.




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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2008, 04:31:34 pm »
Cain, I was thinking about this.

1.  If imposition of order creates an escalation of disorder;

Isn't that only in a theoretically closed system?
"Soon, all of us will have special names." -Professor Brian O'Blivion

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2008, 04:39:41 pm »
The original text didn't say.