Author Topic: Forgive me for going grey...  (Read 7364 times)

The Invisible Man

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2008, 04:53:11 pm »
No, I mean in physics, doesn't the imposition of order only lead to the escalation of disorder in a closed system?

I could be talking out my ass here.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2008, 04:56:34 pm »
If you're talking about Entropy, then yes, I believe so.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2008, 04:57:46 pm »
Yes. I was just clarifying for my own head, by the way.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2008, 06:03:18 pm »
as far as i know about Entropy and Thermodynamics/Physics, they are indeed speaking about closed systems.
but i don't think that the Eristic/Aneristic Delusions follow from the laws of Entropy.

in fact, the only way to physically "impose" more order or disorder on a closed physical system, is to respectively decrease or increase the temperature of said system.

the only problem is that this scale, "temperature" is defined as the amount of order/disorder in a system. or, sort of, the energy that represents the bouncing around of the atoms in said system.

so that would create a sort of circular reasoning.

also, i think it's a lot more useful to consider the Eristic/Aneristic Delusions on a much, much larger scale. starting at the personal level (which is already a lot of orders of magnitude bigger than the average physics textbook thermodynamic system/model), and of course the societal/cultural level.

because at that scale it totally makes sense.

and we shouldn't depend on an analogy in Thermodynamics to argue the "law" of the Eristic/Aneristic Delusion anyway, because there's no reason to assume that what works in Thermodynamics works the same in Social Dynamics.

(leave that to the chaos reiki wizards and their quantums)
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Penumbral

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2008, 05:58:51 am »

i'm not really expressing about what anybody's personal dicordian worldview should be but rather i'm expressing a series of thoughts i had late at night about a way things seem to be.  one example that i left out was that what is discord on one level is order on another.  take the halftone pattern of a newspaper print for example. incredibly close up, it looks like discord all random dots every which way. if one pulls back far enough one can see a picture (a pattern) emerge.  sickness is in a sense discord, but if it wasn't for sickness we wouldn't really know what health is.  all i'm really doing is pointing out how they go together.  so wouldn't acting and thinking in a discordant mannar essentially be limited, or possibly perportionate to one's own perception of order/disorder in one's life?  a person who has children obvioulsly has a different degree of perceived order/disorder than say a mercenary.

afterall, cain, you do pick your battles do you not?  thats all i'm really sayin.

And I'm pointing out everyone in this thread who says "order and disorder are equally important" or who goes on about "balance" are fundamentally dishonest.

They would have you believe that the forces should be complimentary, on an individual level, while totally ignoring the level of analysis above that, of society.  If we treat society as a system, with polarities of order and disorder, and accept that commonly held views within culture, politics, religion etc have an impact on the entire system, then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that, since society is weight towards "order" that an equal movement opposing order and promoting "disorder" may bring the system back into equiblibrium and balance things out on a social level.  And that would require individuals who are willing to forsake personal balance for the greater good, since otherwise the fanatics of "order" would be able to force society closer to their polar ideal, keeping a hegemonic monopoly within society.  Their view is self-centered and ultimately selfish, because it basically says "fuck everyone else, because I'm balanced" and ignores any ill effects from an Aneristic society a balanced person may suffer under.

The thing you can do most to help "balance" order and disorder is to bring disorder to levels complimentary with the percieved order within your local environment.  Not jabber on like a New Age twerp about how you are thinking both order and disorder are bringing something to the table and should be both respected for their contributions to the world.

Fortunately, I don't buy into "balance" at all as an argument so I don't have to worry about any of that.  But I'm not the one promoting it, merely the one taking it to its logical conclusion.  If you want balance, promote disorder over order on a personal level.

Ok i know I am about a page too late here, but this is a good argument, and my side is not being represented. My side is your all obviously wrong.

First cain it feels like your violating the spirit of what your saying when you use "pure" Kantian ordered logic to prove that chaos does not get enough face time, and to ratify that we must go nutzo in the streets for the benefit and balance of mankind. 

On the other hand we have burns and he is saying that in our own lives we can choose to balance chaos and order. We might be driven to one side or the other but what is important is that we realize the balance of both.

Then we have a bunch of people switching sides back and forth and RWHN changing the topic to safety.

Are we talking about society or personal here? If its society I honestly think, cain, that we will be only going to wrong direction if we try to add a lot of chaos to our life in order to balance society. It may logically not make sense, but it is observable that the people who create by far the most chaos for the world are the once most organized. (religion, lawyers, schools, and governments)

On a personal level I think we all need to do away with our grey-o-meters. It seems like many of us keep looking down and if it starts to get into the grey we go, oh shit, "gobble gobble gobble." And yet we feel conferable when it goes into the utter psycho range. This isn't a contest, this really isn't a club that only the loonys can be a part of and if you don't pass our loony test, your out, look for something easier discodian isn't your thing.

Just stop caring how much chaos you project, and don't be afraid of how much order you might project. You really have no choice you will always be balancing chaos and order.

 

Cain

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2008, 02:41:30 pm »
I think you missed the part where I said I didn't care about balance, and was extending the logic of that argument to make a point about its worthlessness.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2008, 04:08:38 pm »
Now this is a nice bit of a fight :)

I'm gonna weigh in because no one seems to have posted a view that falls in line with my view. So here we go:

Order and Disorder seem, to me, as simply ways of perceiving things. We can perceive Starbuck's Pebbles as forming a pentagon, a pentagram, a five fingered hand of Eris, or some random pebbles on the ground. There's no inherent order or disorder involved here... only your own perception of the phenomenon.

We all perceive things as Ordered constantly, if not our communication on this forum would look like this:

Quote
Quote
Hi, How are you?

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> HOIhcxewpjP0EW2-04U-?1
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tHANWKCO39*652821EYNBXAKL?

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No, that's a bad idea...

While we can quote the PD like scripture to back some silly "balance of order and disorder", I fear that may be eating the menu. Consider the point Mal-2 made:

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If you can master nonsense as well as you have already learned to master sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity. From that moment of illumination, a man begins to be free regardless of his surroundings. He becomes free to play order games and change them at will. He becomes free to play disorder games just for the hell of it. He becomes free to play neither or both. And as the master of his own games, he plays without fear, and therefore without frustration, and therefore with good will in his soul and love in his being.

Both Apparent Order and Apparent Disorder are simply ways of perceiving and interacting with our environment. There appears nothing wrong with either perception, but it does seem problematic to forget that BOTH are just ways of looking at the data. For example, the species of the world are Ordered, we can look at the taxonomic tree... but we can also consider them as Disordered, because the taxonomic tree is just a model that generally groups critters in a useful way. There are things that don't fit, even among things that do fit... it sometimes requires a shoehorn.

The Aneristic Delusion has an opposite... just as some see Apparent Order as the TRUTH, some see Apparent Disorder as TRUTH. Yet, both appear to be placing the order and disorder there themselves.

Order and Disorder can be THE way you operate in Life, but I think Mal-2 was pretty clear that he was advocating both of those positions as games, games that we can be free to play as we Will. Games of Disorder, Games of Order, Games of WOMP, Games of Internet Safaris, Games of GASMS, Games of Trolling, Games of Poster Plastered Streets, Games of Working a Day Job and Games of Managing our Finance.

Some of the time, Disorder seems useful.
Some of the time, Order seems useful.
All of the time, we should be Free to choose what we think as most useful for the situation at hand.
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Penumbral

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2008, 07:38:46 pm »
I think you missed the part where I said I didn't care about balance, and was extending the logic of that argument to make a point about its worthlessness.

I was arguing your argument, not your position.

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2008, 08:06:56 pm »
i like the way you put that, ratatosk

Reeducation

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2008, 09:15:57 pm »
I use myself. :|

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I am very calm

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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2008, 05:25:02 pm »
Order is as needed as chaos is. In fact, order can create chaos more surprising then chaos. You expcet chaos when you're in a chaotic environment. But, whenever something odd happens in an completely ordered environment, most will become shocked. "Why aren't things going the way we expected?" they ask, "We followed all the rules."

And the Discordians laugh. "SNAFU, guys."
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Re: Forgive me for going grey...
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2008, 10:44:32 pm »
You expcet chaos when you're in a chaotic environment. But, whenever something odd happens in an completely ordered environment, most will become shocked. "Why aren't things going the way we expected?" they ask, "We followed all the rules."

And the Discordians laugh. "SNAFU, guys."

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