Author Topic: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes  (Read 28289 times)

Xooxe

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 05:52:24 pm »
That's a great description, LMNO.

Weirder than quantum theory is our need to mystify it even more. I don't think I've ever seen a documentary where it's presented as something which can be comprehended.

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2008, 06:02:49 pm »
Even simpler:

When things get really small, we have to rely on machines to tell us what's happening.

If you set the machine to detect a wave, it will.

If you set the machine to detect a particle, it will.

You can't set it to detect both.

Here's more detail:

Quote from: John Marburger III, "Beneath Reality"
The Schrödinger field pattern in position space determines where a detection event is likely to be found, and its pattern in wavelength space determines the momentum we associate with the object causing the event.

If the events are localized in a small region, the wave pattern will be localized but consequently it will contain many elementary waves – its momentum will not be well-defined.

Conversely, if the momentum detector clicks only for a narrow range of momentum values, the wavelength is well-defined, and the wave pattern must extend over many cycles – its location in space is not well-defined.

 You can have waves with well-defined position or well-defined momentum, but not both at once. This is the true meaning of the uncertainty relation first enunciated in 1927 by Heisenberg.

The "Heisenberg uncertainty relation" emerged in an atmosphere of confusion from which it has never quite escaped. Much of the fault lies with Heisenberg himself who was not content with setting forth the bare theory, more or less along the lines I have described above (but in mathematical language), he also tried to make the result more comprehensible with suggestive physical arguments.

For example, he implied that the uncertainty has its origin in the inevitable disturbance caused by the measurement process (which is not inherently a quantum concept). Bohr objected to these explanatory efforts, convinced that the matter was deeper than Heisenberg made it out to be.

As I see it, most problems of interpretation are resolved by the simple fact that the microscopic theory does not refer to any physical waves or particles. It refers to well-defined detectors and unambiguous events of detection.

Accounts that ascribe position to particles and momentum to waves apply macroscopic language inappropriately to microscopic nature. You can set a detector to register an event with well-defined momentum, or you can set it to record an event with well-defined position. That does not entitle you to say that the event is caused by a "wave" or by a "particle."

Nicely stated, LMNO.

In fact, I'd argue that this is the most pertinent aspect of Quantum * in philosophy. It's a useful example of how the machine interprets the data... and a reminder that our neurological system is yet another machine interpreting data as its programmed to do (wave, particle, Holy Guardian Angel, Obama's Kenyan Birth Certificate, visual evidence that the WTC was brought down by explosives...)
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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2008, 04:28:58 pm »
The difference being that in our case it's a hardware problem, while in the case of the machines it's a fundamental property of really small things, not an error.

I see no reason why a completely alien mind could observe macro events without interpreting them.
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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2008, 05:38:51 pm »
The difference being that in our case it's a hardware problem, while in the case of the machines it's a fundamental property of really small things, not an error.

Well, not exactly. If the machine is configured to measure things as waves, it can measure light as a wave. If its configured for particles it can measure as particles. The machine is assessing the measurements based on what input it has and how its designed to translate that input. Just like our neurological system.

Quote
I see no reason why a completely alien mind could observe macro events without interpreting them.

Maybe... it could be that for some alien mind, the map is the territory... but I'm not sure I can currently conceive of a mind that would be able to process ALL available data without any interpretation and still have the ability to function in any meaningful way.

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2008, 11:43:53 pm »
Thanks LMNO, now i finally have an answer to the people who use quantum theory to prove retarded stuff.

"Stop applying macroscopic language to microscopic subjects!"
or for those who nitpick:
"Stop applying the language used for objects bigger then an atom to the objects that are smaller then an atom!"
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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2008, 03:38:53 pm »
I really hate the "it changes when you measure it!" crowd.

But not as much as the "it changes when you look at it!" spags.

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2008, 07:22:51 pm »
I honestly attempted to understand the article in the OP but I failed.

LMNO's "When things are really small or really big they act different from each other" has always worked for me, and I don't feel the need to confuse myself further.

Since biology is an emergent system in the macrorealm quantum physics isn't particularly useful for me.
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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2010, 11:29:27 am »
i just realized that participating in an active forum such as this one.
with such reality building dough packed into it.
so much shit to wrap my mind around.
im gonna be in one of those constantly programming modes all the time.
this is interesting.
i feel i have been lacking in ontological contemplations lately.


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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2010, 02:05:24 pm »
i just realized that participating in an active forum such as this one.
with such reality building dough packed into it.
so much shit to wrap my mind around.
im gonna be in one of those constantly programming modes all the time.
this is interesting.
i feel i have been lacking in ontological contemplations lately.

Don't worry, you'll soon get over it and revert back to typical monkey behavior.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2010, 02:10:40 pm »
i just realized that participating in an active forum such as this one.
with such reality building dough packed into it.
so much shit to wrap my mind around.
im gonna be in one of those constantly programming modes all the time.
this is interesting.
i feel i have been lacking in ontological contemplations lately.

You have to be careful with that stuff, though.  Trust me on this, if you never trust me on anything else.

LMNO

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2010, 02:15:44 pm »
Who trusts a mad scientist, anyway?

Doktor Howl

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2010, 03:26:37 pm »
Who trusts a mad scientist, anyway?

Fucking nobody, that's who.

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2010, 10:38:56 pm »
i just realized that participating in an active forum such as this one.
with such reality building dough packed into it.
so much shit to wrap my mind around.
im gonna be in one of those constantly programming modes all the time.
this is interesting.
i feel i have been lacking in ontological contemplations lately.

You have to be careful with that stuff, though.  Trust me on this, if you never trust me on anything else.

i know what you mean actually..
it helps to remember all that mumbo jumbo about MAPS and MENUS and shit though.

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Jasper

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2010, 02:41:56 am »
The map is not the menu.

nuclearcabbage

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Re: Quantum Theory in 10 minutes
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2010, 03:16:54 am »
theres a map behind the menu

order something or gtfo
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