Author Topic: Hurrah, creationism in the UK  (Read 15230 times)

Golden Applesauce

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 08:01:31 am »
As far as I can tell, the Young Earth Creationist/Bible-Humpers are mostly: Baptist, Pentecostal, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witlesses, and various non-denominationals.

The ones that support evolution are: Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterianism, Methodist, Church of Christ. That's just on the official stance of the churches though.  There is plenty of crossover among congregants, of course.

The official Catholic stance accepts evolution as change-over-time, even natural selection, but posits that natural selection alone is insufficient to produce humans; God's creative energy was required.  Which you have to admit is the best you can do while hanging on the the 'soul' idea.
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Cain

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 11:31:13 am »
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in alot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 10:30:50 pm »
Church of Christ is sometimes ultra fundie as well.

Depends on the part of the US you are in.
Ah, I meant to say the United Church of Christ.  I didn't realize that there was a difference until just now.

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Iason Ouabache

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 06:15:22 am »
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in a lot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American Catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.
They are going to be holding a conference on it in March in honor of the 150th anniversary of Origin of Species. It looks like it is going to be less about the science though and more about the philosophical and theological issues.  They will probably just flesh out their theistic evolution ideas.  I doubt any Intelligent Design mumbo jumbo will sneak in, but you never know.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/09/10/vatican-sees-urgent-need-to-review-darwin-and-evolution/
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Iason Ouabache

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 05:32:30 pm »
PZ Myers did a good blog post about this:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/09/michael_reisss_big_mistake.php#more

Quote
Those who ask us to "teach" creationism are either abusing that verb in a way an educator shouldn't, or they are asking us to give bad science a special privilege, a promotion to the status of a legitimate scientific subject that deserves to be on a science teacher's lesson plan. It doesn't. It is not important to specify that students must learn that some people think the earth is 6000 years old. What should be on the outline of concepts taught in science class is how we know the earth is much older than 6000 years.

...

Michael Reiss, the director of education, is pushing this idea with a noble and reasonable intent: he thinks it is the only way to reach some students who will shut off learning if their religious biases are challenged. Unfortunately, he's also suggesting that non-science/anti-science concepts should be specified as a course objective in science classes, he's buying into common creationist propaganda ploy, and he's asking for unwarranted deference for wrong ideas held for unscientific reasons by students.

...

A director of education who won't even repudiate the "teach the controversy" propaganda line of the creationists, though, has exposed his own ignorance of the issues and of the necessary goals of science education, and has made his ability to keep superstition out of science suspect. Reiss is demonstrably unfit for his job, not because he plays silly games with god-belief in his spare time, but because he's willing to pollute the science classroom with lies. That should not be tolerated, and I don't care that he thinks it's a way to maintain rapport with students — there is no acceptable excuse for conceding science to those who don't understand it.

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Cain

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 06:00:13 pm »
That is pretty much where I am coming from on this as well.

Iason Ouabache

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2008, 02:36:57 am »
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in a lot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American Catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.
They are going to be holding a conference on it in March in honor of the 150th anniversary of Origin of Species. It looks like it is going to be less about the science though and more about the philosophical and theological issues.  They will probably just flesh out their theistic evolution ideas.  I doubt any Intelligent Design mumbo jumbo will sneak in, but you never know.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/09/10/vatican-sees-urgent-need-to-review-darwin-and-evolution/

Looks like i was wrong.  It is going to be from a scientific point of view.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=13812

Quote
Fr. Leclerc explained the reason that the congress is being held, saying, "Debates on the theory of evolution are becoming ever more heated, both among Christians and in specifically evolutionist circles. In particular, with the approach of the ... 150th anniversary of the publication of 'The Origin of Species,’ Charles Darwin's work is still too often discussed more in ideological terms than in the scientific ones which were his true intention.”

"In such circumstances - as Christian scientists, philosophers and theologians directly involved in the debate alongside colleagues from other confessions or of no confession at all - we felt it incumbent upon us to bring some clarification. The aim is to generate wide-ranging rational discussion in order to favor fruitful dialogue among scholars from various fields and areas of expertise. The Church has profound interest in such dialogue, while fully respecting the competencies of each and all,” Fr. Leclerc said.
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Iason Ouabache

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 05:15:42 am »
And Reiss is now stepping down.

http://royalsociety.org/news.asp?id=8008

Quote
Some of Professor Michael Reiss's recent comments, on the issue of creationism in schools, while speaking as the Royal Society's Director of Education, were open to misinterpretation.   While it was not his intention, this has led to damage to the Society's reputation.  As a result, Professor Reiss and the Royal Society have agreed that, in the best interests of the Society, he will step down immediately as Director of Education a part time post he held on secondment.   He is to return, full time, to his position as Professor of Science Education at the Institute of Education.

The Royal Society's position is that creationism has no scientific basis and should not be part of the science curriculum.  However, if a young person raises creationism in a science class, teachers should be in a position to explain why evolution is a sound scientific theory and why creationism is not, in any way, scientific.

The Royal Society greatly appreciates Professor Reiss's efforts in furthering the Society's work in the important field of science education over the past two years.   The Society wishes him well for the future.
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Vene

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2008, 05:03:35 pm »
Wow, the UK really is more secular than the US.  Over here we have hardcore creationists who not only refuse to step down from positions of authority, but their creationism can be a political selling point.


We fucking suck.

Iason Ouabache

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2008, 05:16:38 pm »
Please to be noting:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804713.htm

Quote
Phillip Sloan, a professor at Notre Dame, told the press conference the evolution debate, "especially in the United States, has been taking place without a strong Catholic presence ... and the discourse has suffered accordingly.

It's about time they got off of their asses and told the fundies to STFU!   :argh!:
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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2008, 10:46:51 pm »
Speaking of, this is what the fundies here get away with.

Quote
"It's really a disgrace for the state school board to impose evolution on our students without teaching creationism," county school board member Jimmy Hobbs said at Tuesday's meeting. "The law says we can't have Bibles in schools, but we can have evolution, of the atheists."

link

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2008, 11:17:42 pm »
Yeah, the Vatican has gone pretty much as far as it can go without giving up belief in alot of basic Christian scripture on this issue.

That said, I recall the current Pope is not too impressed with it, and prefers intelligent design.  Thurenz might know more, he is very up on internal politics of the Catholic Church.  There is a lot of resistance from American catholics and the Society of Jesus for the current Pope's position though, so it may not be a huge issue.

The current (catholic) pope *hates* intelligent design, and only barely stopped short of calling it heresy when he was a cardinal.  I'll pull up references if I remember when I'm home, have some of his papers bookmarked.

Unless Ratzinger died while I wasn't paying attention?
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Iason Ouabache

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2008, 01:07:07 am »
Speaking of, this is what the fundies here get away with.

Quote
"It's really a disgrace for the state school board to impose evolution on our students without teaching creationism," county school board member Jimmy Hobbs said at Tuesday's meeting. "The law says we can't have Bibles in schools, but we can have evolution, of the atheists."

link
Damn you!  I was just getting ready to link to that!   :argh!:

Quote
Board attorney Joseph Causey said it might be possible for the board to add creationism to the curriculum if it doesn't replace the teaching of evolution.
:lulz: They are going to be in for a big shock very very soon.
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Iason Ouabache

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2008, 01:27:32 am »
Follow-up story already:  http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080917/ARTICLES/809170272/1155&title=No_place_for_creationism_in_science_class__state_says_

Quote
The Brunswick County school system offers a Bible as Literature course in high school, but it’s not being taught this year because no students signed up for it, according to administrators.

 :lulz:
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Vene

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Re: Hurrah, creationism in the UK
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2008, 03:03:58 pm »
Quote
Teachers have alternative assignments for students whose parents have objections about evolution, but students are still assessed on the topic in state tests, she said.
Fail.

Quote
Dunlap said teachers should present evolution to students as a theory substantiated by scientific evidence, but students should not be taught what to believe.
You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts. :argh!: