What is Chi?

[Manta Obscura]

Cain and Rat:

Both very insightful posts that I'll have to look over more thoroughly when I get a chance. As it is now, both of your posts remind me of some of the ideas of classic and post-classic rhetoricians, many of whom spoke at great length on the subjects of kinesics and haptics in controlling the (in their cases) rhetorical situation. Attributing ki and its "transmission" to a combination of physiological and nonverbal cues seems akin to the ideas of one rhetorician (whose name I can't remember; it begins with an M, and it isn't Marshall McLuhan. I'll look him up whenever I can go back to my rhet journals tonight) concerning the Tyrannizing Image, the idea of certain held notions and visual/verbal/societal cues structuring how we respond to certain stimuli.

I often wonder if the bullshit level of those sorts of observations are more to do with their model and symbols...

according to some experts, the vast majority of human communication happens through body language. I think, the number was somewhere around ~%80 or so. As Telarus and Kai have discussed in earlier posts... one of the interesting things about Chi exercises, pranyama, etc is the isolation of otherwise sub-conscious activity (breathing etc).

Much Human Communication is Body Language.
This Body Language appears to be subconscious in most humans.
Various forms of meditation allow subconscious activity to become conscious activity.
Therefore, meditation may allow us to gain better control of our body language.
By making the appropriate body language, an opponent may be thrown off, tricked, overpowered, or simply distracted, though subtle body language . . .

Tiny packets of information used to hack the opponents brain?

The idea of nonverbal, kinesic cues being used to "hack" others' brain has been around since the dawning of rhetorical education. I think you're definitely hitting the mark when you talk about the use of nonverbal cues in physical interpersonal interactions. The use of studied motions of the body can definitely correspond to a control of the mental and physical situation of an opponent/listener/other communicator, and has been written widely in the writings of folk like Cicero and the Belletristics. I'm wondering if the ideas of ki and chi, if we were to study them technically and experimentally like the rhetoricians did with the art of converse, would have a correlation to the arts of kinesics, haptics, logos modification, and the transition of the Tyrannizing Image.

Hmm . . . now I want to check out some of my old rhetorical texts . . .

[ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S.]

I don't really know what to add to these posts, since the current discussion of Chi as utilized externally is foreign to my personal internal experience.

It does seem more and more likely Chi is psychosomatic, possibly the ultimate result of invoking the mind-body connection.

[fomenter]

I don't really know what to add to these posts, since the current discussion of Chi as utilized externally is foreign to my personal internal experience.

It does seem more and more likely Chi is psychosomatic, possibly the ultimate result of invoking the mind-body connection.

my chi experience is also limited to a internal perceptual one, any one who has studied ti chi has probably heard stories of the 90 something year old master  who is helped (carried) into the classroom by some burly students and left standing in the middle of the room, instructions are given for a large number of the best students to attack him as hard and fast as they can with no concern for his safety and when they do the old guy makes a few subtle movements and the entire bunch of students are left on the ground hurting. this is a display of external use of chi i would love to see. the explanations given are, harmony the old guy is in harmony and the act of attacking automatically puts the students out of harmony, and the other is the use/manipulation of external chi the old guy doesn't need to touch  the attackers in order to effect them. 

[ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S.]

I don't really know what to add to these posts, since the current discussion of Chi as utilized externally is foreign to my personal internal experience.

It does seem more and more likely Chi is psychosomatic, possibly the ultimate result of invoking the mind-body connection.

my chi experience is also limited to a internal perceptual one, any one who has studied ti chi has probably heard stories of the 90 something year old master  who is helped (carried) into the classroom by some burly students and left standing in the middle of the room, instructions are given for a large number of the best students to attack him as hard and fast as they can with no concern for his safety and when they do the old guy makes a few subtle movements and the entire bunch of students are left on the ground hurting. this is a display of external use of chi i would love to see. the explanations given are, harmony the old guy is in harmony and the act of attacking automatically puts the students out of harmony, and the other is the use/manipulation of external chi the old guy doesn't need to touch  the attackers in order to effect them. 

I've heard that story too, but I heard it from study of Chi Gung.

[fomenter]

i have heard it as an aikido story as well, using the harmony instead of the chi explanation.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

In fencing, the better fencers are spotted because their movements are so much smaller and precise. A 'disengage', for example, is usually a big wrist movement for a n00b, a small wrist movement for a decent fighter, a twitch for masters... and I know one guy that, well, I'd swear he doesn't move his wrist at all.

So perhaps we have move X which takes a 3" movement for a n00b, a 2" movement for an advanced student, 1" for a master and there's a few crazy bastards that can pull it off in 3/4". Following are crazy theories that could explain some of it:

1. The shorter the movement, the faster the movement, the less time it takes to recover from the movement or correct it. Advantage to the Master

2. Defending against a 3" move X requires slightly different movements than a 2" or a 1"... IF a person has never fought someone that had a 3/4" move X, then it may be that they simply couldn't defend against it. Advantage to the Master

3. The Master has thousands of years of myth and tradition on his side. The student has always heard of the Master, in whatever art, and his amazing prowess. Thus he may overestimate his opponent and make mistakes. Advantage to the Master

4. The Master has thousands of years of the experiences of other Masters on his side. The Master has learned to work with whatever is available to him. If his legs are poor, then his arms must find a way to replace them. Thus, the student, believing the Master to have no legs of use... may underestimate his opponent and make mistakes. Advantage to the Master

5. Maybe the Master doesn't actually need to be carried in, cause he actually just has a bit of arthritis in his knee. Advantage to the Master

Or, maybe there is some phenomena that the Chi label actually describes, which would also be an advantage to the Master. 

[ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S.]

Regardless of why, the master always has the advantage.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Regardless of why, the master always has the advantage.

This is the correct zen motorcycle. 

[fomenter]

i would like to see it in practice ... i also kind of buy the harmony argument for an explanation since ti chi, aikido and probably chi hung are all soft martial arts and rely on the redirection and manipulation of the force used against you it makes a type of sense .. the mechanics of leverage applied to a force would seem to be in action (a small movement applied to a moving object with leverage creates a large change in the objects direction)

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

i would like to see it in practice ... i also kind of buy the harmony argument for an explanation since ti chi, aikido and probably chi hung are all soft martial arts and rely on the redirection and manipulation of the force used against you it makes a type of sense .. the mechanics of leverage applied to a force would seem to be in action (a small movement applied to a moving object with leverage creates a large change in the objects direction)

I agree with this too... its amazing what an understanding of physics can do for fighting

[fomenter]

i would like to see it in practice ... i also kind of buy the harmony argument for an explanation since ti chi, aikido and probably chi hung are all soft martial arts and rely on the redirection and manipulation of the force used against you it makes a type of sense .. the mechanics of leverage applied to a force would seem to be in action (a small movement applied to a moving object with leverage creates a large change in the objects direction)

I agree with this too... its amazing what an understanding of physics can do for fighting

yes -- this also works for the case where the master "knocks the attacker over with chi" if the attacker makes a fully committed strike there is a point at which his balance is dependant on the impact of the strike, if the master can "through experience and practice" learn to move away and not be there after the strike is committed and before it hits the attacker will fall on his own. waving your hands around and calling it chi is the misdirection of a magic trick at that point.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

i would like to see it in practice ... i also kind of buy the harmony argument for an explanation since ti chi, aikido and probably chi hung are all soft martial arts and rely on the redirection and manipulation of the force used against you it makes a type of sense .. the mechanics of leverage applied to a force would seem to be in action (a small movement applied to a moving object with leverage creates a large change in the objects direction)

I agree with this too... its amazing what an understanding of physics can do for fighting

yes -- this also works for the case where the master "knocks the attacker over with chi" if the attacker makes a fully committed strike there is a point at which his balance is dependant on the impact of the strike, if the master can "through experience and practice" learn to move away and not be there after the strike is committed and before it hits the attacker will fall on his own. waving your hands around and calling it chi is the misdirection of a magic trick at that point.

 Of course, the waving your hands around bit may be extremely useful esp if its a magic trick 

[ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S.]

The issue being here is that the knowledge is not logical-mathemetical. Its kinesthetic, its wordless, something you learn by doing. Which means you may not even know its a "magic trick" consciously.

[fomenter]

The issue being here is that the knowledge is not logical-mathemetical. Its kinesthetic, its wordless, something you learn by doing. Which means you may not even know its a "magic trick" consciously.

this would tie in nicely with the harmony part, wordless (mental harmony ) kinesthetic (feeling) your opponents movement and moving with it in a way that defeats him. also both martial arts and mysticism use the acquisition of magical powers to gain students, "i have to work how hard?!!" "yes but wen you are done you can do amazing X". the practical results keep people who do the work happy and justify the exaggerations when its their turn to cultivate students

[ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S.]

The issue being here is that the knowledge is not logical-mathemetical. Its kinesthetic, its wordless, something you learn by doing. Which means you may not even know its a "magic trick" consciously.

this would tie in nicely with the harmony part, wordless (mental harmony ) kinesthetic (feeling) your opponents movement and moving with it in a way that defeats him. also both martial arts and mysticism use the acquisition of magical powers to gain students, "i have to work how hard?!!" "yes but wen you are done you can do amazing X". the practical results keep people who do the work happy and justify the exaggerations when its their turn to cultivate students

Essentially, what is magical is actually natural, but must be advertised as magical for people to keep interested.

I am more interested when the nature of the techniques are claimed honestly from the get go.