Author Topic: Insightful Post Dump  (Read 28973 times)

Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2008, 04:49:10 pm »
or just new Discordian lit.

There's so much said on these boards, and I wish we could share it with outsiders without them having to pour through all the noise


a GASM approach would be to ask people to use del.icio.us to tag posts and art which would work well in a publication. Every few weeks, we'd go through the recent posts in the bin and throw them into a pdf. Sort of like a PD Peedy Periodical.

We could even have themes, like "shrapnel discussions", "vs atheism" and "MS Paint"

I'm in.

I've never used del.icio.us, but I can probably learn it in the next few days and begin.

Also, good idea for the new Discordian lit. There's a lot of gold on these boards that's just waiting to be put out there.
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Cramulus

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2008, 04:53:48 pm »
I've never used del.icio.us, but I can probably learn it in the next few days and begin.

you can learn it in 10 minutes.
It's a basically bookmarking system -
     you can add these "post to del.icio.us" buttons to your browser
     and then when you see something you want to bookmark, you just click, and add tags / description

The cool thing is that we can search each other's bookmarks. so if you tag it "litgasm, shrapnel", and I search for "litgasm" or "shrapnel", I'll be able to see what you've bookmarked.

Quote
Also, good idea for the new Discordian lit. There's a lot of gold on these boards that's just waiting to be put out there.

Yeah, it's just a matter of finding a prospector crazy enough to pan for it.  :p

Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2008, 05:11:02 pm »

Yeah, it's just a matter of finding a prospector crazy enough to pan for it.  :p

Yep, here I am.  :) It will probably take me about 20 years to go through all of the posts on here, but I'm willing to do it.

Strangely enough, one of the best ways to find golden posts is to look on the Board Index and see where the guests are lurking, because they tend to view a lot of the really old threads, and also tend to pick out a lot of good rants.
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Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2008, 05:26:02 pm »
From Cram and Cainad in the "Who Killed the Lulz?" thread:

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for Lulz! I am looking for Lulz!"
  As many of those who did not believe in Lulz were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

  "Where has Lulz gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed them - you and I. We are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to crap up the whole internet? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire web? What did we do when we unchained the forum from its URL? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all forums? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying Lulz? Do we not smell anything yet of Lulz's decomposition? Lulzs too decompose. Lulz is dead. Lulz remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become Lulzs simply to be worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whosoever shall be born after us - for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."

Again I say, I do not know what has become of the lulz, though I think--almost hope--that it is in peaceful oblivion, if there be anywhere so blessed a thing. It is true that I have for five years been its closest friend, and a partial sharer of its terrible jokes about the unknown. I will not deny, though my memory is uncertain and indistinct, that this witness of yours may have seen us together as he says, on the Gainsville pike, walking toward Big Cypress Swamp, at half past 11 on that awful night. That we bore electric lanterns, spades, and a curious coil of wire with attached instruments, I will even affirm; for these things all played a part in the single hideous scene which remains burned into my shaken recollection. But of what followed, and of the reason I was found alone and dazed on the edge of the swamp next morning, I must insist that I know nothing save what I have told you over and over again. You say to me that there is nothing in the swamp or near it which could form the setting of that frightful episode. I reply that I knew nothing beyond what I saw. Vision or nightmare it may have been--vision or nightmare I fervently hope it was--yet it is all that my mind retains of what took place in those shocking hours after we left the sight of men. And why the lulz did not return, it or its shade--or some nameless thing I cannot describe--alone can tell.
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LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2008, 06:24:49 pm »
LMNO
-feels snubbed.

:emo:
LMNO
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The Spider Project.

Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

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Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2008, 06:32:08 pm »
LMNO
-feels snubbed.

:emo:

Don't worry, I just haven't started looking at your posts yet, and I'm waiting until the end of NaNoWriMo before posting anyone's long works.
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Enrico Salazar

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2008, 06:34:15 pm »
There is shocking absence of glorious faggotry in these collection.
Did someone say "gorgeous"?

Cainad (dec.)

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2008, 07:51:12 pm »
Quote from: Enrico Ritzibottom Salazar
As Enrico stepped off tuna boat onto fine soil of this country he was immediately molested by a strange man in a rumpled suit with crazed eyes.  Normally this would not bother Enrico at all, on the contrary, he advertises for it . . . but this man wasn't interested in Enrico's crotch at all, he was only interested in talking religion and philosophy.  He asked Enrico, "Do you believe there is such thing as a true religion?"

Enrico snorted and replied "Isn't pornography the religion in this country?"

He told Enrico that it was not, which saddened Enrico for a few moments, it was after all why Enrico had come to this country in the first place.  Immediately his visions of becoming a pope of porn melted away . . . he would have to find other ways to get people to accept his 'host', he relized.  He was only sad for a moment, of course, because Enrico rarely has to do much persuading, being the virile testicle squid he is.

The man pulled a medalion from under his shirt and waved it before Enrico's eyes.  Enrico, in turn pulled seventeen medalions from under his shirt and waved them around too, thinking 'what strange customs these beautiful faggots have', but was distracted from his inner monologue by the man saying "This is called the Sacred Cow."

"Sacred Cow?"  Enrico asked, then added:  "In Enrico's homeland that is Beatrice Arthur."

"No no," the man said.  "Cow!  See Ayche Aye Oh.  Cow.  It is the singular version of Chaos."

"Chaos."  repeated Enrico.

"Yes,"  the man said.  "Chaos is the natural state of the universe.  Aspects of chaos are order and disorder.  Both are natural, so do not shun the disorder as false, it is true."

"You speak bullshit," Enrico laughed.  "Enrico likes that."

"This is not bullshit.  This is truth that will set you free."

"No."  said Enrico.  "Is bullshit.  But, bullshit is important."

The man's eyes widened in amazement.  "Bullshit?  Important?  Why?"

Enrico was surprised that the concept of Bull hadn't been taught to this man.  What else was going to be different in this country?

"Bullshit is very important."  Enrico told the man.  "Bullshit should be spread far and wide.  Always spread bullshit wherever you go."

"Why?"  asked the man.

"Is simple.  If you speak to someone and tell them truth you have made them think nothing, is true?"

"No, they think about what you said."

"How many peoples do you know?"  Enrico asked.  "Most peoples, they are not completely right in the head.  Most peoples accept your information like a baby goat accepts your root.  If you give them bullshit, though, the person will later find out about it, become angry, but then they will need to go look up the information themselves.  They will need to use their own head gravy, instead of relying on other peoples to do their thinking for them . . . in this way bullshit is very very important.  So spread bullshit everywhere, my fine friendly faggot."

Enrico was about to leave when the man called out to him "But what if they never find out that the information is bullshit?"

Enrico turned back to the man.  He shrugged.  "Fuck em.  If they are that stupid they deserve to stay that way."

And that is how Enrico taught the silly Discordian about the Sacred Bull.

Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2008, 09:03:00 pm »
An incredibly long post by LMNO from the thread titled "Discordia and Christianity." That should stop yer bitchin', Rabbi  :wink:

Summary: Part I


I don't know if this has either been asked before or never asked before, but I'll ask anyways.

Although Discordia is a chaos-based religion. It does have a deity that it's followers hail to and other religious practices. Is it possible for a Christian to enjoy being a Discordian, but not hail to Eris(sorry if mispelled) I don't want to start any rants, debates, or arguements over christianity. I know the majority of people here are pretty random and closer-minded to the god of madness on Oblivion, Sheogorath. I am also like this though. I enjoy random chaos, confusing people and causing complete madness. It's fun, at church to make teens stop putting their backpacks in the hallway all over the floor, I fill their bags with leaves and dirt, sometimes tissues or whatever i can think of.
Anyways, back on topic. Is it possible to be dominantly christian, but still take part of Discordia? No goddess worship. If it's possible to place God instead of Eris or something. If anyone on here can help me out, that would be great.
I have asked this before in the past and got nothing useful. I hope someone can shed some light for me.


Consult your pineal gland.

Christ isn't a god as far as I can tell from the year I spent in a Christian fundamentalist cult, so go for it. The Christian bible doesn't deny other gods, it just tells you to forsake them, but Christ kind of absolves you from that anyway.

Did you actually READ the Principia Discordia? The answers are to be found therein.

I'll read it, but I merely wanted to know if I can be a discordian by upholding the ways of causing chaos and other discordian things, but not hail to Eris or have anything to do with eris.

I think there are significant philosophical differences between Christianity and Discordianism.  Christianity has a variation on God as the one who creates the world out of the formless chaos and brings order to it.  He is the Law-Giver.  Sin is defined as what separates one from God - the concept of authority is central to a lot of Christianity.  Same for rules.  The Rules are good because the infallible Law-Giver made them; you, as a fallible human being shouldn't try to create your own rules because you'll probably screw it up.  Some branches leave interpreting what God wants you to do to tradition, to a college of bishops w/ pope, to a community of believers, or to the Bible.  If an individual ever has to figure out the right thing, he has to do a lot of praying.

Discordianism has an entirely different stance.  Rules and order simply aren't necessary.  Discordianism doesn't really admit that there ever has been a Law-Giver, and if there was, then he could either be followed or not.  The concept of Authority as something that someone possesses by virtue of being omnipotent or omnibenevolent or creator is foreign; in Discordianism, the only authority that another has over you is the authority you choose to grant him.  The only rules that exist are the ones you place on yourself.

We don't worship madness.  We don't even generally approve of madness, unless you're especially good at it.  What most of us do approve of is a practice known as thinking for yourself.  What it means to be a Discordian is fairly mutable, but what we're definitely not is moral relativists or stark raving loonies.  

To answer your question, there are NO RULES in Discordianism.  Not even the part about it being a religion.  Not even the part about it being a Joke.  Where there are rules is in Christianity, which affirm that Apostates are totally fucked and can never get into heaven.  Enjoy your ban.

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense." -- Sri Syadasti.

How does that statement apply to itself?  How does it apply to the Principia Discordia wherein it is contained?  Perhaps if you spend enough time meditating on this you understand Discordianism.

Or not.  But you'll spend a shitload of time trying.  That's a good thing.

My personal view of Discordia is the useful metaphors in discerning Disorder, Order, Creation, Destruction, reality as a psychological construct, et cetera.  The rest is good jokes and bad jokes, to me.

It seems like it resonates with some part of you, which is awesome. I think, personally, that Christ is compatible with Discordianism, but not necessarily that Christianity is.

Discordianism is a lot of things, but mainly, it's one of the few living religions around these days. and i'd like to keep it that way, which is why i can't offer any kind of answer to the "what is discordianism" question.

A joke disguised as a religion / a religion disguised as a joke

Both statements are true, in no particular order. if you don't understand, it's because you think religion is something that tells you about reality. but religion can't tell you about reality, it can only describe reality as somebody else sees it. discordianism, on the other hand, doesn't try to do that. it tries to trick you into seeing reality for yourself.

Chaos, discord, and order are all illusions. discordianism is only a chaos religion in that it has a disregard for what you're "supposed" to recognize as 'chaos' or 'order.' it seems like chaos because when you stop seeing things the way they are presented to you, it becomes pretty apparent that everybody is fucking crazy.

Objectivity, in short.  Overlooking subjective and personal interpretation for a nonexistent "true" answer or secret as to what Discordianism "is".
Discordianism is whatever Discordians do.

Please leave your Platonism at the door, at least for now.  You may want to go back and grab it later, but right now it is hindering you.

The universe is chaotic and random, and Discordia is my measured, pragmatic response to it.

“discordianism is a lot of things, but mainly, it's one of the few living religions around these days.”

This is very good, btw.  I had never thought of it that way but it's very true.  All of the major religions stop living centuries ago.  I think it's because of how they treat holy books and their authors.  Discordianism is still living because we don't treat our predecessors like gods. They were just schmucks who happened to have some really good ideas.  If we are lucky we can be as good or better than them. You don't get that in other religions due to the high amount of "ancestor worship".

Paiyaku has many things working against him/her/it.

1- The username, to begin with (goddamn, I bet it's a malachite alt! :P).

2- As Cain says, Platonicism is NOT helping.

3- An inability to string together all the helpful and, for a change, coherent advice offered in this thread.

4- An unwillingness to expand on his/her/it's reasons for not wanting to accept Eris as part of the package. I don't either, btw, but I know why I don't. Most people here ignore that aspect too. Are you still too hung up on Christianity to really think for yourself?

5- Paiyaku has not read the BiP.

I'm not really caring about this thread at all, I just wanted to write another list.  :D

Ok, Pai.  First off, you had mentioned not wanting to "mis-represent" Discordia.  Why do you want to "represent" Discordia in the first place?  Is there some sort dissertation going on?

Secondly, Discordia can be called a "Chaos Religion," but only if we get to define the terms.*

Term 1:  "Chaos" is defined as a combination of Order and Disorder.
Term 2:  "Religion" is defined as a subjective belief structure.

So, Discordianism (actually, I usually call myself an Erisian, because it's shorter to type**) can be defined as "a subjective belief structure based around the combination of Order and Disorder."

As to your other question, I think somone above said it best, "Christianity is not Discordian, but Christ probably was."

*Please note this is only my definition.  Other Discordians' definitions may vary.

**I'm lying.  That's not why.

If you're worried about what "God" will think, you probably have no business here.

Please to note that this is not the same as "if you believe in God, you can't be a discordian".

The trick with Discordianism for an outsider, I feel, is that the harder you think about it, the harder you try to "figure it out" the more likely you are to miss the entire point and not get it.  

If you are starting with the Principia, you need to just read the book and kind of just soak in what's going on.  It is a tiny book so it may be very tempting to just plow through it and get to "the point".  But if you have zero familiarity with Discordianism, you really need to take your time with it.  I recommend reading it, setting it down for a couple days, and then return to it and really think about it.  And don't discount the marginalia.  I find that everything that is in the PD is there for a reason, and is part of the puzzle.  That line at the end of the book is key, paraphrasing: "If you think the Principia is just a ha ha, read it again"  It is very easy to not take it seriously.  

I also think it will be a little difficult to "get it" depending on how you naturally think.  I never heard of Discordianism until I borrowed the book from a friend (who happens to be a Christian btw) and this was only a couple of months before I joined this place.  But, I think I had a way of thinking that was pretty much in line with the philosophies in the book.  I was tickled pink to discovere there was a whole "religious" movement devoted to that kind of thinking.  Another key, I think, is being able to step back from your thoughts.  To understand what impacts your thoughts and what motivates you to think in certain ways.  

Payne had it right, I think you might want to also read the Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited.  You can download it at www.blackironprison.com  We also have some other writings that speak to that idea and metaphor.  It might help you further understand where some of us come from with this thing and how we approach it, and moreover to really get a good understanding of the "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" concept.  

We live in a pretty fucked up world.  There is much that is beyond our control and there is this manmade societal monstrosity that pulls at many strings.  Those armed, with themselves, I think, stand the best chance at recognizing the machinery that is in place, in the human world, and have a better chance at negotiating the cogs and gears throughout.  


I think you might want to also read the Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited.  You can download it at www.blackironprison.com  We also have some other writings that speak to that idea and metaphor.  It might help you further understand where some of us come from with this thing and how we approach it, and moreover to really get a good understanding of the "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" concept.  

We live in a pretty fucked up world.  There is much that is beyond our control and there is this manmade societal monstrosity that pulls at many strings.  Those armed, with themselves, I think, stand the best chance at recognizing the machinery that is in place, in the human world, and have a better chance at negotiating the cogs and gears throughout.  

Chaos is the big picture.  It holds logic and illogic within its folds.

There is no one way of thinking.  And, a lot of people who consider themselves Discordian also do NOT consider it a religion.

Asking individual Discordians their beliefs will be more productive than asking what "Disocordians" as a whole believe.  Discordians as a whole don't really believe anything.

Yeah, I don't treat it as a religion.  I treat it as more of a philosophy.  I don't believe in an actual Goddess Eris, but I believe in the philosophy that she is supposed to embody.  Like, I think Christianity would have been much more palatable for me as a kid if it hadn't been for the part where I had to actually worship and prey to some dead hippy and some bearded phantom in the sky.  There are some Christian philosophies that make sense.  It's the stupid dogma and politics of the dogma that screw the whole thing up.  

I can't answer for anything else, but what is more important, following the rules or bucking the system?

I guess for me being discordian is figuring out that it's a wrong-headed question to even ask that type of thing.

Some people seem to be very good at following the rules.
Others seem very good at opposing the rules.
Still others seem to be very good at making up the rules for everyone to follow.
Still others seem to be good at figuring out the rules even though they don't really care.
Still others are totally clueless about rules as a whole.

I'd rather step outside that type of approach.  What if one of those is good in one type of situation but not in another?  Why can't I just pick which I want depending on the needs of the moment?  Why do I need any of them?  Be a christian and a discordian if it suits you.  Why do you need an official ruling on the subject?

I believe in Eris when its useful to believe in Eris. I don't believe in Eris when its not useful to believe in Eris. Sometimes I treat Discordianism as a philosophy, sometimes as a religion and sometimes as a joke.

To crib Uncle Al:
We place no reliance on Virgin or Titan,
Our Methods are Nonsense, Our Aim to 'enlighten'

That's exactly it for me.  Discordianism (for me) is not about deciding pro-rule or anti-rule, its realizing that both can be appropriate in different situations, and realizing which is which.

The people who "stick to their guns" no matter what evidence is thrown at them, to me, are the antithesis of Discordian.  

The "beginner mindset" is one of the most useful headspaces. It means you're still trying to figure stuff out, as opposed to people who think they "understand" (and thereby stop learning and testing themselves). Hang on to that.

Lets summarize:

1. ask questions, escpecially this ones which sounds stupid and senseless
2. don't be too sure that your point of view is the true one, you're wrong
3. don't listen too much to people which say you're wrong
4. don't summarize to say what discordian is.

5. discordian is, what you think discordian is. and it isn't.

1) Discordians do NOT put emphasis on disorder.  That is the Eristic Delusion.

2)  "Random" as a term seems to have a different definition than it used to.  I'm not certain which context you are using it in here.  Young people of today seem to use it as a synonym for bizarre, which is not what it means.  Random means random.  To say random things would mean to pop out things like "Toaster.  Penguin.  Mouse trap.  Cry.  House."  Try posting that sort of stuff here and see how far it gets you.  So, which -exactly- are the random things here you have noticed?

Buddy, we're our own worst blasphemers. Fuck Eris, fuck Discordia, and fuck all this Chaos-Order bullshit (<--- See?)
Some of us worship Eris. I've done it once or twice for yuks. There are no real religious rites or practices, and not hailing Eris is as valid a Discordian practice as anything else. You certainly don't need our blessing to be a "Christian Discordian" or what-have-you. There is no Discordian Authority anywhere.
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 05:05:54 pm by Manta Obscura »
Everything I wish for myself, I wish for you also.

Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2008, 09:03:57 pm »
Part two of LMNO's post:

Summary, Part II

In conclusion, no one can tell you what Discordia "is all about." Hell, it's damn near impossible to pin down what the more mainstream religions are all about; people have fought wars over that sort of thing. Is Christianity about doing good works and trying to spread compassion, or is it about believing in the power of God and Jesus to redeem our sins? Ask the Catholics and Protestants and see what kind of answers you get.
However, I will tell you that Discordia's one advantage, in my mind, is that it doesn't demand that you figure out what it's "all about," unlike a lot of religions which seem to place great emphasis on believing exactly the right things. But I could be wrong about that, depending on how you see it.

The imposition of Order comes from many sources, sometimes including Discordians that think there IS A RIGHT WAY.

I suppose in my opinion, every man woman and child is a Discordian, either from the House of the Rising Hodge, or the House of the Rising Podge. Those in the house of the Rising Hodge, may be Discordians, or they may be completely unrelated to Discordianism (the kid that created the FSM, Mark Twain, Camus)... same for the house of the Rising Podge (People like Bush, Cheney, maybe some Discordians that think there is THE RIGHT WAY to be Discordian).

So maybe all people that claim the title are Discordian in some sense... but maybe not the sense they were hoping for.

Causing disorder is causing disorder.  Expressing Discordianism is expressing discordianism.

So, now that we have discovered the Illusions of Order and Disorder, we can turn to the next page of the Principia Discordia, 00063, “The Curse of Greyface”.

THE CURSE OF GREYFACE AND THE
  INTRODUCTION  OF NEGATIVISM 
      To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder. To accomplish this, one need only accept creative disorder along with, and equal to, creative order, and also willing to reject destructive order as an undesirable equal to destructive disorder.
      The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.


POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable.
      Seek the Sacred Chao - therein you will find the foolishness of all ORDER/DISORDER. They are the same!

Now, while that is very interesting, several of us were thinking a few things:
1. It reeks of hippiedom.
2. Its still dualistic.
3. Some of us like breaking stuff.
So, we thought about it an made a new chart:

So:  Possibilities arise fourfold.  The original pattern remains, Creative Order/Disorder, and Destructive Order/Disorder.  But rather than limiting one’s observances to an essentially two dimensional outlook, we may expand upon it.*

Orderly Disorder:  The means and methods of predictable chaos, a false front; often used by cabbages to pass themselves off as wise.  Rather than let the warm bosom of Eris comfort and inspire them to do great things, they force them selves into carefully planned actions which may look Erisian at first glance, but are almost entirely Aneristic.

Orderly Creation:  Architecture, Mathematics, Haiku, Fugues; Creative energies bound by rules, yet yielding great works that bring beauty into the world.  In this light, structure and boundaries are not the enemy, they are merely tools with which to create.

Orderly Destruction:  The triumph of the Aneristic Illusion.  Everything is rules.  No freedom exists, for it is bound by carefully crafted commandments.  The creative spirit has been vanquished, crushed.

Disorderly Order:  The methods used by Ghandi and MLK; Civil Disobedience.  Causing Disorder through non-chaotic action.  The rock in the stream that causes turbulence and eddies.

Disorderly Creation:  Using Eristic means to Create; Cf. Jackson Pollock, John Cage, Free Jazz, etc.

Disorderly Destruction:  Most Natural Disasters.  Many cabbages consider this the only aspect of Chaos. 

Creative Order:  The means and methods to which one brings the Aneristic Illusion into greater perception.  Gruad’s revolution occurred only because Gruad was creative enough to communicate them to his fellow Atlanteans.  Also, the PNAC, and most justifications for rescinding personal social freedoms.

Creative Disorder:  A process that engenders another process... Much like the intended results of Operation: Mindfuck-- that is, one creates a clever and specific kind of disorder, whose purpose is to turn neophobes into neophiles.

Creative Destruction:  The answer to the usual objection to the original Creation/Destruction meme, to wit, “you have to destroy in order to create”.  In fact, if one moves beyond the merely physical into the conceptual, every major artistic breakthrough has come from breaking/abandoning/destroying the “rules” in a creative way.

Destructive Order:  The rules and paradigms that repress and inhibit Freedom and Creation.  The tools of the Aneristic Illusion.

Destructive Disorder:  Behavior and actions that are harmful; various psychoses and self-destructive habits; temper tantrums.  Many Novice Erisians (and many Elder Erisians as well) often mistake Destructive Disorder as a beneficial thing.

Destructive Creation:  The process of building things that have no purpose but to destroy.  Oppenheimer, creating the Nuclear Bomb; Bioengineering new viruses that can wipe out the planet.  In general, these are poorly directed creative energies.

Which leaves us with 4 spaces left: Orderly Order, Disorderly Disorder, Creative Creation, and Destructive Destruction.  What do they mean?  The fuck if I know.  And there lies the first clue.  They are also the purest forms of these aspects.  That is the second clue.  The other three clues are Hidden.  Regardless, it soon becomes obvious that if one takes the four purest elements and combines them simultaneously into a fifth, Eris is born.  She is all things, all conflicting ideas, all concepts, all aspects.  Hence, the 5-fingered hand of Eris occupies those spaces.

It has been noted by Discordian scholars that opening up the Chart in this way give rise to furthur [sic] observations of Destructive Disorderly Order, and Creative Destructive Disorderly Order, and Orderly Creative Destructive Disorderly Order etc.  I leave this exercise up to the reader, as it’s getting late, and I’m almost out of scotch.

*The wise-assed among us would like to remind the reader that ultimately, every single square in this chart should contain the Hand, as this is merely another exercise in Illusion, and these aspects are merely interpretations of that which is Chaos.  Fair enough.  Turn the page.

I would say that the most useful aspect of Discordianism for me personally, is self-application. That is, seeing where I impose order on the Universe and learning to make the imposition of order or disorder a choice, rather than an automated response. Sometimes order is useful and necessary, but that never makes it True. Sometimes disorder is useful and fun, but that never makes it True.

to quote "Nonsesnse As Salvation" from the PD:

Quote
If you can master nonsense as well as you have already learned to master sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity. From that moment of illumination, a man begins to be free regardless of his surroundings. He becomes free to play order games and change them at will. He becomes free to play disorder games just for the hell of it. He becomes free to play neither or both. And as the master of his own games, he plays without fear, and therefore without frustration, and therefore with good will in his soul and love in his being.

There is no "meant to be" in Discordja.  We generally leave normative statements to other people or to individual "discordians" instead of saddling our "religion" with them.  Causing disorder and strife isn't good in and of itself, but it isn't bad in and of itself either.  The general approach of people on this forum seems to be "Think for yourself whether discorder, strife, and confusion would be a Good Idea in this situation, and then go for it. (or not.)" rather than using prejudice or someone else's judgment to determine your course of action.

ETA: Since you aren't perfect, when you say that your understanding is solid, there will necessarily be flaws.  By making your understanding solid, those flaws will be written in stone, and saddle you for the rest of your life.  Make your understanding fast and loose, adroit and changing as the world changes.

The bit about "causing disorder" is an interesting point, and I think one worth exploring. How you define "disorder" is key... for instance, I think that many of us enjoy creative disorder very much, if it is defined as an act which breaks the monotony of an ordered routine and causes someone to think, or laugh, or both. Is disorder a "lost cat" poster with a picture of a possum? Is it a "contains sausage" sticker on a package of sausage? It might be.

Discordia merely recognizes the value of disorder in balancing the order, and vise-versa. Sometimes on a small scale, and sometimes on a large one.

Consider the largest disorder/order adjustment in our history; WWII. The Third Reich represents Destructive Order, and the Allied Forces represent Destructive Disorder. In that case, we used Destructive Disorder to balance the Destructive Order, and restore balance to the global Chao.

IMO creative disorder is very pleasing. Too much of it, however, results in things like Victorian architecture, which in turn leads to a backlash of Frank Lloyd Wright, so it is important to remember that all things must be in balance.

A Discordian is someone who fills in the blanks with whatever they darn well please.  That IS my explanation.

Or did you want an all-encompassing, final definition that Discordians everywhere will recognize? If that was the case, it ain't happening. A lot of time and energy has gone into exploring that question, and everyone always comes away with different ideas.

This forum is home to a particular flavor (or perhaps flavors) of Discordianism, and many of us here take great pride in mocking any Discordian (or anyone, really) who claims to know what it really means to be Discordian. Not all Discordians do that.

Ask ten Discordians what Discordians do, and you will get eleven different answers.

You seem to want Discordja to fit in a neat little box so you can understand it easier.  That's a cop out.

Here's an analogy:
A Brit comes over to America.  (Let's call him "Bob.")  One of "Bob"'s stateside friends takes him to see a basketball game, which "Bob", living in the third-world country of Europe, has never seen before.  At first, "Bob" is confused.  The game just doesn't make any sense.  Eventually, he picks it up.  "This is just like our football!" he shouts, "except the players use their hands instead of their feet, the goal is smaller and ten feet in the air, and there is no goalie.  I understand it now!"  "Bob" watches the rest of the game, and has great fun.  He knows what basketball is, right?

Wrong.  Basketball is like football.  "Bob" may have a great understanding of football, but he doesn't understand basketball.  He understands a little game that is superficially similar to basketball, but basketball is much bigger than that.  If "Bob" stopped joined a bunch of kids playing pick-up on the street, he'd get his ass handed to him.  He doesn't understand the rhythm of a game, the interplay between defense and offense, or any of a thousand other nuances.

You can't perfectly describe Discordja (or pretty much any worldview/belief system I can think of) in one sentence.  If you could, people wouldn't go to the trouble of writing books on the subject.  If you could perfectly describe it in one book, people wouldn't write multiple books and commentaries on books.  We've written books; we have a depository of essays, discussions of essays, arguments in discussions... and we aren't finished yet.  We won't ever be.

That varies from person to person to situation to situation.  I tend to use Orderly techniques when I want things to work right, and disorderly methods when I want to make jokes or engage in skullduggery.  Sometimes, mixing and matching gets best mileage. 

It's all about what you're trying to do.

I'm thinking that sometimes also chaos is necessary to prevent chaos.
It seems that too much order results likely in destructive chaos (and I think politics and our social system is going in that direction), so nondestructive chaos brakes maybe order overwhelming a bit. Destructive chaos would speed up it.

So I find currently a good thing to spread some nondestructive chaos to brake the order overwhelming to prevent or delay an outburst of destructive chaos.

I focus less on the order/disorder and more on the creative/destructive.  It is obvious that there needs to be some order in society.  For example, traffic lights.  Music is another example.  Music can be an example of creative order, and there is such a reference in the PD about musicians and poets working out orderly, but creative, rhythms. 

And yet, music can also be another prime example of creative disorder.  My music project, the illegitimate son of convention (which can be found here: www.myspace.com/theillegitimatesonofconvention ;) ) is based on the principle of creative disorder.  About taking song-composing convention and flipping it on its ear.  There are some really good tunes based on the 12-bar blues.  But, I find shirking a convention like that, and diving headfirst into unstructured sounds and "rhythms" to be a particularily cathartic experience.  And that is mostly because that particular song will never be recreated.  If I were to try to recreate that, it wouldn't happen and it wouldn't have the same visceral feel to me or the listener.

So anyway, when you put too much emphasis on disorder, you aren't being Discordian, you are being, well, a little narrow minded really.  The thing of it is, Discordia doesn't provide a template.  You have to make your own template and then outfit it with your own conventions. 

 



« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 09:07:01 pm by Manta Obscura »
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Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2008, 09:42:37 pm »
Everything I wish for myself, I wish for you also.

Iason Ouabache

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2008, 05:30:58 pm »
You cannot fathom the immensity of the fuck i do not give.
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Manta Obscura

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2008, 05:45:59 am »
For general hilarity:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14027
Was that the first use of the word Spag?

I'm not sure; I haven't made it through all of the posts yet to see if there were any earlier occurrences, but this was the first time that I heard people talk about "Spag."

Does anyone know the answer to IO's question?
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Payne

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2008, 05:48:18 am »
For general hilarity:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14027
Was that the first use of the word Spag?

I'm not sure; I haven't made it through all of the posts yet to see if there were any earlier occurrences, but this was the first time that I heard people talk about "Spag."

Does anyone know the answer to IO's question?

The actual first use of the word was several days before that thread was made in IRC.

I believe that this thread is the first use of spag in this context (the word has existed for a while, in south park forums and as an insult to Italians, apparently)

Hoopla

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Re: Insightful Post Dump
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2008, 06:09:26 am »
Not quite the same, but it amuses me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFxnAPbDaPA
"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman