Author Topic: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti  (Read 2020 times)

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« on: December 09, 2008, 09:02:31 pm »
So Obama is talking about how to create jobs... and it appears he's gonna try Public Works projects.So, my question is "Why not kill multiple issues at once?" We have problems with wasteful city designs, wasted resources for urban environments etc... Why not start dumping money into build Archology sites across the US?

http://www.arcology.com/


Self-Sustaining cities seem like a smart move to me... and if we're looking for ways to get people employed, why not teach them how to build the future?
 
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Cain

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 10:45:18 am »
Arcologies sound like they come under the greater rubric of resilient communities.  I know a lot of work has been done on the mechanics and economics of such communities recently.

The problem is, that such communities would most likely be far more self-sufficient and keep far more economic resources within the boundaries it exists within.  They would be decidedly less dependent on centralized government resources and probably inspire a lot of loyalty, since the working together such a community would require would likely lead to the creation of a strong, civic, local identity (stress+shared events, its in the Art of Memetics).

In power terms, such places are threats to the ruling order.  My feeling is this: Obama, like Bush, essentially wants to keep the current (failing) economic order as the status quo.  I suspect Obama envisions certain reforms to make it a nicer system than it was under Bush, but the same underlying approach would be maintained: consumption, fractional reserve banks speculating on incredibly high risk markets, state-backed ogliopolies given unfair advantage and a massively complex system out of the control of everyone - especially the state, international bodies or financial regulation systems.

The problem is that at least one plank of this - the US consumer, who propped up two artificial economies - is dead in the water.  Given their necessary role in this psychodrama as the patsies and fall guys for the rest, this does not bode well.  However, the leadership of two of the world's most powerful nations have miscalculated on this, and badly.  Russia, interestingly enough, has not, and while I have no illusions that life there as a neo-feudal serf will not be fantastic, their government has at least reacted according to the crisis which is actually happening, and not the one they think is happening.  They moved quickly to prop up the industries that could be saved, and are letting the rest burn.  Its going to hurt, but not as badly as bailing out companies which are failing entirely through their own fault.  Most of the Russian leadership lived through the dissolution of ther empire, and a few major economic crisis'.  Ironically, this may give them the necessary edge in understanding this one.

Now, it could be the crisis is not as bad as is claimed.  Its certainly possible, and I do not claim to be an expert.  But it has the potential to be.  Paradigm shift is the phrase I think I have been looking for.  Planks of the old system have been abused to the point of death, but most world leaders wish to retain that old system - because they understand, because they profit from it and because their financial backers have a vested interest in an ordered future they know how to exploit.  They want to live in the past, to how things were, and I'm not sure this is entirely possible.

Naturally, I'm not saying this is going to happen overnight.  Usually such changes take a generation or more to properly kick in.  But it started in 1999, with the internet bubble.  The decision was made in the late 90s to stave off a crash with the property market.  I'm not sure where that puts us, but I do know that generally speaking, delaying a crash makes it worse.  Whether thats due to the mindset which tries to undertake such activities, or for arcane economic reasons, is hard to say.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 06:01:55 pm »
I agree in part... depending on the implementation and the philosophy involved, Arcology options could be a problem for centralized rule.

However, IMO, this (like earthships) is a great concept that needs to be divorced from their current philosophical proponents.

Arcology technology, first and foremost, attempts to do three things:

1. Maximize population density, while minimizing the footprint on the ecology.
2. Utilize technology to produce a self-sustaining system for needs (water, electricity, basic foodstuffs).
3. Design habitat with logistics in mind.

Acrosanti, particularly, has a more self-sustaining philosophy as its designed/run by people with that kind of philosophy. However, other arcologies have been proposed and in China one will be opening in 2010.

In arcology theory, one could house the citizens of New York City is less than 10 city blocks of space, with electricity, water etc all managed within the arcology. That doesn't mean they need to self-govern, nor does it mean they would necessarily live in a commune like environment ala Arcosanti. Rather, they could be run in the same manner that any given city is run. City employees could handle arcology management and city citizens would be free to run their own businesses, as they do today. In such an environment I don't think that they would be as prone to the idea of self-governance (or at least no more so that cities today).

Another option with acrologies is that they could be built inside existing cities, rather than promoting urban sprawl. In those instances, the arcology doesn't need to be entirely self-sufficient, but in a number of cases, things like green electricity could be included in the design.

One of the coolest theoretical arcologies being discussed currently is the Shimizu Megacity Pyramid. It's still on the drawing table, and they're relying heavily on theoretical technology that doesn't exist yet... but the overall scope of what they're aiming for is awesome. It also is not a commune design, but rather its just a compressed city, sitting in the middle of Tokyo bay.
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Iason Ouabache

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 02:26:38 am »
Naturally, I'm not saying this is going to happen overnight.  Usually such changes take a generation or more to properly kick in.  But it started in 1999, with the internet bubble.  The decision was made in the late 90s to stave off a crash with the property market.  I'm not sure where that puts us, but I do know that generally speaking, delaying a crash makes it worse.  Whether thats due to the mindset which tries to undertake such activities, or for arcane economic reasons, is hard to say.
Imposition of Order = Escalation of Chaos   :fnord:

Your entire comment was great, btw.
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Malcoid the Malcontent

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 02:39:58 am »
Paradigm shift is the phrase I think I have been looking for.  Planks of the old system have been abused to the point of death, but most world leaders wish to retain that old system - because they understand, because they profit from it and because their financial backers have a vested interest in an ordered future they know how to exploit.  They want to live in the past, to how things were, and I'm not sure this is entirely possible.

If this current ECONOMIC CRISIS is not enough to spark a paradigm shift, I dread to think of what it will actually take to cause such massive change.

Also, when taking to people I cant help but say ECONOMIC CRISIS, like Im saying it in caps and bold. Im not really sure what I am trying to say by doing this, but I enjoy it none the less.

Placid Dingo

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2010, 09:50:33 am »
I've not dared to bump til now, let I enrage the PD Gods.

But I found this interesting.

Bump.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

the last yatto

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2010, 10:45:53 am »
If there was a way to solve the Vegas problem Ie having to pipe in water. Living in a vault doesn't sound half bad
Look, asshole:  Your 'incomprehensible' act, your word-salad, your pinealism...It BORES ME.  I've been incomprehensible for so long, I TEACH IT TO MBA CANDIDATES.  So if you simply MUST talk about your pineal gland or happy children dancing in the wildflowers, go talk to Roger, because he digs that kind of shit

Reginald Ret

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2010, 02:22:03 pm »
If there was a way to solve the Vegas problem Ie having to pipe in water. Living in a vault doesn't sound half bad
Easy peleasy: close system, recycle water.
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Cain

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2010, 03:14:16 pm »
Just for the record, I have no interest in solving America (or for that matter, Britain's) problems.  In an ideal world, their leaders would be indicted for crimes against fashion at the Hague (Lady Gaga presiding Judge, Gwen Stefani advocate for the defense and Chloe Sevigny as prosecutor) and both countries slip into the sea...at least temporarily.

However, that's merely because I'm not benefitting from the current system.  I'm not invested in it.

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2010, 05:58:52 pm »
I personally cant wait for world government to collapse so I can start a militant nudist colony.
My goal would be to expand my territory to the point that it was a nudist empire stretching from Michigan to the gulf of Mexico.
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Glittersnatch would be a rather unfortunate condition, if a halfway decent troll name.

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the last yatto

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Re: Solving America's Problems... Obama and Arcosanti
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 12:07:51 am »
If there was a way to solve the Vegas problem Ie having to pipe in water. Living in a vault doesn't sound half bad
Easy peleasy: close system, recycle water.


Could work if you banned breeding
Look, asshole:  Your 'incomprehensible' act, your word-salad, your pinealism...It BORES ME.  I've been incomprehensible for so long, I TEACH IT TO MBA CANDIDATES.  So if you simply MUST talk about your pineal gland or happy children dancing in the wildflowers, go talk to Roger, because he digs that kind of shit