Author Topic: Salve Discordia  (Read 5292 times)

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

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Salve Discordia
« on: January 29, 2009, 03:49:37 pm »
(A quick word before i start: I'm new to this forum and not sure if this bit of philosophical speculation is being posted in the right place, but it seems to be the right place. If it isn't, then tell me. oh, and Hi :wave: )

From the Desk of Prelate Diogenes Gilgamesh Zarathustra Shandor, A.R.S.E. :mrgreen:
(Please note that the final portion(1) of this rant/diatribe is written in a slightly different style, as it was originally part of a paper that (which?) I wrote for a college course)


Salve Discordia:

One thing which I have noticed about many Discordians is that many of them seem to believe that everyone can get along without arguing, forgetting that Eris is, first and foremost, the goddess of discord; A more important problem however, and one which is perpetrated by Discordians and Non-Discordians alike (particularly in the Church of the Sub-Genius) is a misinterpretation of the meaning of this discord:

   The Discord of Eris is not the bloody warfare of Ares or the wholesale destruction of J.R."BOB" Dobbs :rogpipe: (may all acquittals be upon his name), but rather merely the small-scale petty bickering and domestic unrest seen amongst the guests of "The Jerry Springer Show" and those people picked up by the police on "Cops" and of mudslinging politicians during an election year.

   Nor is the truest and holiest Strife of Eris Discordia manifest in acts of one-sided oppression either, but is only present in the skirmishes and uprisings and general popular unrest that arise as a reaction thereto. \The strife and discord of Eris are more the tool of the freedom fighter than of the oppressor. Generally there have to be two real sides both fighting in order for there to be actual discord between them; when only one side is fighting and the other isn't fighting back, that isn't discord, its more in the realm of being stepped on.

   Her Strife and Discord are present, to some degree, in the endless forms and infuriating decision making processes of bureaucracies, but only in their most bastardized form, as bureaucracies are often put in place in order to prevent conflicts, or at least those conflicts that could harm or pose a threat to their parent governments or companies, replacing them with stodgy, bastardized pseudo-conflicts that play out only on paper under the direction of uncaring paper pushers :fnord:. Bureaucracies, and other infuriating things, instead lend more to the Discord of Eris more so in the expressions of outrage which they create than they do by the outrage itself their internal decision making.

   The discord of Eris is also manifest in the system of checks and balances of our political system(2); Even though the majority of both the Democrats and the Republicans are either promoting some corrupt personal or partisan agenda and/or (else), failing that, are incompetent, when you get both parties together in congress in approximately even numbers, the corruptions on both sides more-or-less cancel each other out. If there was only one political party, then all of that party’s agendas and machinations, even those of the most corrupt nature, would quickly come to fruition and we’d swiftly be plunged into a nightmarish dystopia. If both of the parties, instead, acted truly bi-partisanly, then it would either be functionally the same as having only one political party, or else we would get stuck with compromised (and/or bastardized) laws that please nobody :x.

   Oh, and also evolution; Strife and Discord power evolution as well; The Natural Selection part of evolution anyway...

Since it is perhaps naïve to believe that we can ever all get along truly equitably, here are just a few examples of situations where, by replacing methods of conflict resolution that rely on warfare or dehumanizing stodginess, the Discord of Eris could enrich all of our lives, if only society would let it:

1.) Bureaucracies: :vom: these are generally put in place to ensure that resources are allocated in the most efficient way possible, but are themselves wildly inefficient. I think that we can all agree that it would less time consuming and aggravating for all involved if we settled questions of resource allocation through bare-knuckle brawls instead. This system would also represent a savings in terms of space for corporations and governmental departments based in a small number of large buildings, as a boxing ring, pit-of-death, and/or Thunderdome in each building would take up less space than that already used up by bureaucratic record-keeping facilities and the offices of existing bureaucrats

2.) Peace and War: If everyone could learn to be so uncooperative that order could no longer be maintained within the ranks of armies than there would be no more wars.
                                       Imagine, if you will, two world powers poised on the brink of nuclear war, as they were back in the dark days of the cold war. Their leaders give the order to fire, but the soldiers refuse; They feel that if they’re going to be firing off nuclear missiles all of a sudden then they deserve a raise in pay. Their commanding officer browbeats them for insubordination and while he’s doing so, another soldier with a preexisting grudge shoots him; The entire missile silo instantly erupts into a multi-sided firefight between the soldiers. Within minutes nobody is left to fire the missiles. Similar disputes break out in all of the missile silos on both sides of the conflict and because of this a nuclear holocaust is narrowly averted and Peace is thus restored to the world.

3.) Peaceful Conflict Resolution: I believe that the most sensible way for the leaders of the world’s various nations to settle conflicts without going to war is to attack each other directly, or, failing that, to attack each other’s families. This would be preferable both in terms of loss of life and effects on the national economy.
          To give just one specific example (of many possible) of just the economic benefits of this plan, current estimations show that the United States of America could have saved up to possibly as much as 4.5 trillion dollars (and almost countless lives) to date by bribing one of Saddam Hussein’s bodyguards to murder him in his sleep(3) instead of going to war in Iraq.

I am not a crackpot, (or, at least, if I am, then that doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m wrong)!
      -Diogenes Shandor      
      -Bohandas Banannafannafofondas       [11:04 05 09 13AM]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 yes, really, the final, “rant’ portion, not the beginning.


2 (I live in the USA, but this is true to a greater or lesser extent of any democracy with at least two or more political parties)


3 Note that the included estimations of savings have already factored in an expenditure of up to 500 Billion Dollars in bribes and other expenses to carry out said hypothetical assassination.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 03:54:12 pm by Prelate Diogenes Shandor »
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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 03:59:19 pm »
This is beautiful, Prelate.  Succinct and well thought out.

I would quibble with a few points, perhaps, but overall nicely done and a very refreshing change from so many of the first posts we get around here.
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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 04:23:35 pm »
I think you'll fit in nicely.  We are most certainly in the "Eris = Strife" camp.

Well, some of us.  But not all.  Don't listen to those other fuckers.

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 07:06:46 pm »
This is beautiful, Prelate.  Succinct and well thought out.

I would quibble with a few points, perhaps, but overall nicely done and a very refreshing change from so many of the first posts we get around here.

Thanks.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.

a plague on both your houses -Mercutio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8

It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft

He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 01:54:17 am »
I liked it, it sounds like you won't have much need of the 50 post rule.
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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 01:57:59 am »
Motherfucking :mittens:

Not sure how I missed this on earlier scans of the forum, but I'm glad I read it now.

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 07:19:07 am »
I liked it, it sounds like you won't have much need of the 50 post rule.

50 Post rule?
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.

a plague on both your houses -Mercutio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8

It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft

He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata

Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Cain

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 10:57:15 am »
I liked it, it sounds like you won't have much need of the 50 post rule.

50 Post rule?

Some people are not entirely up on our version of Discordianism, and expect this place to be more a real time version of PD tracts being re-enacted on the internet.  Also, some people just come here to wow us with their ability to spout not very insightful or funny gibberish.  To give such people a chance, against better judgement, we have a rule where we try to deal with such people without resorting to flaming, insults or derision and in as neutral a manner as possible.

People who show themselves to be articulate, intelligent or with no need to "prove" themselves usually have no need of the rule.

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 02:55:36 pm »
Often, it's taken more as of a suggestion, truth be told.

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 05:47:02 pm »
Often, it's taken more as of a suggestion completely ignored, truth be told.

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 09:31:59 pm »
Well, yeah. Isn't that what rules are for?

I'd really really like to type something here that would push the focus back onto the OP but i can't think of anything to add.
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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 05:57:32 am »
I find myself disagreeing strongly with the premise of the argument, specifically the line "The strife and discord of Eris are more the tool of the freedom fighter than of the oppressor."  This seems the very definition of hubris. 

Discord does not appear to be a tool, it appears to be an inevitability.  The mythopoetic metaphor ("strife and discord of Eris") used by Prelate Diogenes Shandor seems to acknowledge this, while the author apparently does not recognize the importance of his own words.

Who is Eris?  I don't find it particularly useful to imagine Eris as an actual goddess, but for the moment let's go with that.  She is a goddess, a being that is to man as man is to an ant, of discord and strife. These are the essential elements that compose her being.  So what the esteemable Prelate appears to present to us is the idea that "freedom fighters" (chuckles) can use the essential elements of a Goddess as tools.  And not just any Goddess, but one known as something of a Cosmic Überbitch.

This seems a sure recipe for ending up the goo scraped from the bottom of planet sized Grecian sandals.  Serious wrath of god stuff.  Hell, I see a movie in this.

If we think of Eris as something other than anthropomorphic entity of Olympic origin, as perhaps an expanded concept of entropy that includes noise, semantic confusion, the SNAFU principle, and other broad patterns of FAIL, then it becomes more obvious why it is folly to think one can use Eris as a tool.  Eris is what happens when you're making other plans. You don't do Eris, Eris does you.

The proof of this can be found in the Prelate's own examples.  While good for a laugh, his suggestions have no real useful value.  Replacing wasteful hordes of bureaucrats with intelligent agents is a far less zany and wacky idea, so obviously its boring, but at least it does not require devising a means of mapping resource allocation to body blows.  And might actually work.

Not to be a total downer, but the idea of disorganized and uncooperative military makes me think of groups like Hamas and the IRA, with their persistent inability to prevent attacks by their own troops, or the savage rebel groups of the Congo that simply roam and slaughter having long ago lost any purpose.  The respected Prelate says "within minutes nobody is left to fire the missiles" but I can't help but note that pushing a button to fire a missile takes only seconds.

The point here being that there is no need to create discord (it is already a fact of universe), and it is pure folly to try to harness Eris like a ox.

If the words Salve Discordia mean something, then I suggest they mean the small comfort we can take in knowing that the TSOG cannot ever win completely, that it can only create more and more complications for itself, that its means contain inherent flaws that always stymie it from achieving its ends.
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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 12:50:01 pm »
:mittens:

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 03:45:55 pm »
I find myself disagreeing strongly with the premise of the argument, specifically the line "The strife and discord of Eris are more the tool of the freedom fighter than of the oppressor."  This seems the very definition of hubris. 

Discord does not appear to be a tool, it appears to be an inevitability.  The mythopoetic metaphor ("strife and discord of Eris") used by Prelate Diogenes Shandor seems to acknowledge this, while the author apparently does not recognize the importance of his own words.

Who is Eris?  I don't find it particularly useful to imagine Eris as an actual goddess, but for the moment let's go with that.  She is a goddess, a being that is to man as man is to an ant, of discord and strife. These are the essential elements that compose her being.  So what the esteemable Prelate appears to present to us is the idea that "freedom fighters" (chuckles) can use the essential elements of a Goddess as tools.  And not just any Goddess, but one known as something of a Cosmic Überbitch.

This seems a sure recipe for ending up the goo scraped from the bottom of planet sized Grecian sandals.  Serious wrath of god stuff.  Hell, I see a movie in this.


I think that I should clarify that I did not intend to mean that Eris makes everything all sweetness and light; Far from it, the gist of my document was that the power of Eris simply transforms the world from the metaphorical "Boot stomping upon a human face forever", into "Two humans punching each other in the face forever" instead (Something which I consider a much more fair and equitable position, even though people are still being struck in the face)
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.

a plague on both your houses -Mercutio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8

It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft

He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata

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Re: Salve Discordia
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 03:59:13 pm »
Prelate Diogenes Shandor cool.

I do have a question re:

Quote
2.) Peace and War: If everyone could learn to be so uncooperative that order could no longer be maintained within the ranks of armies than there would be no more wars.
                                       Imagine, if you will, two world powers poised on the brink of nuclear war, as they were back in the dark days of the cold war. Their leaders give the order to fire, but the soldiers refuse; They feel that if they’re going to be firing off nuclear missiles all of a sudden then they deserve a raise in pay. Their commanding officer browbeats them for insubordination and while he’s doing so, another soldier with a preexisting grudge shoots him; The entire missile silo instantly erupts into a multi-sided firefight between the soldiers. Within minutes nobody is left to fire the missiles. Similar disputes break out in all of the missile silos on both sides of the conflict and because of this a nuclear holocaust is narrowly averted and Peace is thus restored to the world.

Yes, complete uncooperation could technically mean the end of war (and of civilization).  But many people would think of two armies killing each other as being war.  I realize that in your example there isn't exactly a war, but more of an individualized "me kill" scenario.  But once the  bodies are dead, it makes little difference, except to the historians.

But all in all, Bravo.