Author Topic: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS  (Read 10015 times)

LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 02:48:08 pm »
DK, I wasn't actually expecting a book report; simple regurgitation of the images and words takes very little thought, it's just clever mimicry.

But what this does show me is the way you perceive the PD, and by extrapolation, how you perceive other books and ideas, and why you're having so many problems with our BIP concept.

I fear we will never see eye to eye.  You might chalk that up to your superior intellect… which would be kind of sad.
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 03:38:20 pm »
Well, those are themes that can be extrapolated from the PD. However, I got a very different point than you in a number of areas:

I mean, the very first, most important piece of the PD in my opinion, can be found with our first obvious numeral V: "A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing what he reads." That statement, I think, sets the tone for the rest of the book. At that point, any reader who believes the writers mean what they're writing, might need to think some more. That is enough to warn me that any theme, or meaning within the PD appears to depend heavily on the reader. The reader must now decide for themselves, what to accept and what not to accept... and how tentatively to accept it. Ergo, a description of the PD that attempts to explain it without the use of ePrime (or some other "this is just my lame ass opinion" type language) appears somewhat incomplete and maybe just plain silly.

Quote
"A jug of wine, a leg of lamb, and thou!  Beside me, whistling in the darkness" the meaning of life summed up neatly: Enjoy life, enjoy friends, have no fear.

Whistling in the dark has often been a euphemism for not knowing what the fuck was going on. It also has been used to indicate someone is nervous, afraid or uncomfortable (the lonely person walking down the dark streets, whistling nervously to look calm and with it). It could be interpreted in the manner you stated, but I'm not sure that Kerry would agree with your summation of that lione.

Quote
This book will drive you mad.  Or at least make you maddening to others.  The warning is on Page 5.  A man dares to seek great wisdom.  Some people see him as a holy man.  Others think he is a shithead.  Upon realizing this, he is enlightened.  The moral of the story?  What do you think Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao thinks of His Holiness the Dalai Lama?  Everyone looks like an asshole to someone.  Don't sweat it.

I think you might be confusing the map and territory here. I would say that the student was seeking enlightenment. In Renzi Zen, this is a very dumb thing to do... you do not go seek enlightenment, you experience it. One cannot be given enlightenment. Thus the teacher appears to teach the student by telling him to do something that ANY SANE PERSON would have replied to with "You go fuck off Zen Master". The student, focused entirely on winning by gaining 'enlightenment' in some quick fashion, runs off, though without thought and with complete trust in his Spiritual Leader... and sits in a old broken down crappy building, then shit falls on his head. He goes through ALL of this, sitting in a stagnant old house, doing nothing, learning nothing... just sitting. The shit falls on his head... and he still sits there, waiting for the magics of enlightenment to show up.

It is only when another person comments on the situation, that he becomes enlightened. "Some say he is a holy man" (nothing enlightening there) "some say he is a shithead" (a word that suddenly describes the student physically and metaphorically). The enlightenment, was not "I CAN DO WHAT I WANT AND SOME PEOPLE WILL THINK I'M AWESOME", but rather "Holy Shit, I've been a dumbass".

It reminds me of the lovely painting that Hagbard had hanging in his lounge, where Moses has the One Commandment given by God: "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!"

Quote
Discordians are everywhere.  You can find them because they stick out from the crowd by sticking apart fromthe crowd.  Sometimes they form Cabals, sometimes their Cabals are one person.  They are philosophers, scientists, magicians, artists, maniacs and weirdos.  Dynamic, creative people who struggle with understanding why there is so much strife and discord in the world.  These people are more likely to recognize the genius of this Erisian madness.  These are the people who get Discordia.

Only those people are Discordian?

I notice sometimes that people do seem to get this idea... that the tribe of philosophers, clowns, etc are The Discordians. Yet, this doesn't seem correct to me, in retrospect. Those are the people writing the book, this tribe of madmen interested in the doings of She What Done It All. We could say that they are the Joshua Norton Cabal, or POEE. However, if one chooses to accept what is written on the topic... Every Man, Woman and Child is a Discordian... the only difference lies in their House, The Rising Podge or The Rising Hodge.

;-)

Quote
Erisians are fundamentally nice people. They don't pray, because praying tends to get whole villages wiped out.  That shows concern for the well-being of others.  Another example is the reference to the Brunswick Shrine.  If the POEE visit it 5 times, the world ends.  Recognizing this, they never visit it.  Obviously the end of the world is not desirable.

Well, I can see how you might interpret it that way. Though, based on other Discordian writings from Omar and Bob, I'd guess (IMO) that they were making fun of belief systems through hyperbole, rather than saying "Let's save the villages".

Another way we could look at this, is as a warning against stagnation (Kerry was always railing on about 'doing the same thing...). Perhaps visiting the Shrine five times was the invocation of a repetitive pattern... someone who took the trappings of the erisians and repeated them over and over, as though that would bring enlightenment. Perhaps, if they do the same damned Discordian thing Over and Over (with the number 5 indicating Discordian Magics), their world will be destroyed... IE their freedom will be impaired, their choice will be replaced by routine. Their ability to think for themselves, replaced by rote repetition of religions duty.

Or, maybe they were just being silly. Most of the original PD was written as interoffice memos and jokes between co-workers. It might be a bad idea to deconstruct it too far... sometimes a windmill is just a really, really big lawn ornament.

The rest of your assessment is meh, for me... I think that some Discordians like the 'all creative' viewpoint. RAW certianly tended toward a more optimistic view like that. Personally, I find Destruction to be as important as Creation (and I'm still an optimist)... Igne Natura Renovatur Integra.

Also, you're missing, what I consider as  two key points on the King Kong riff..... :fnord:
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.


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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 03:45:28 pm »
ah, yes.  The New Chart...


...Ok, ok.  I know I go on about that far too much.  Look it up in Intermittens if you so desire.
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 03:49:02 pm »
LMNO asked me to explain the PD.  This is a rough draft.



Ah, the Principia Discordia.  A book hardly anyone reads, and even fewer people understand.  It says it all right there on the front page, but people never listen. They don't believe what they read, because it is ridiculous.  It must be a joke.

But it's right there on the cover.  All of it.  Everything you need to know. 

The firm, authoritative warning: NOT JUNK MAIL.  Take this book seriously.  Do not just throw this away.  This is not garbage.

The concise explanation of the books content: Absolutely everything worth knowing about absolutely anything.  This book contains everything you need to know.  The questions you think you need answers to? They will be answered!

A man forlorn and lost, his back turned from the Hand of Eris.  And finally, the whole of Discordian philosophy found balanced between two simple quotes:  "Be Ye Not Lost Among Precepts of Order..." an ominous warning of the trap that leads to destruction. "A jug of wine, a leg of lamb, and thou!  Beside me, whistling in the darkness" the meaning of life summed up neatly: Enjoy life, enjoy friends, have no fear.

Mal-2 mentions a Zen parable, on the facing page an image on an empty hand and the line: "The uproar of one hand clapping." Announcing the book's nature as a koan that bludgeons the mind with absurdity to create new awareness. The empty hand points, but what is pointing to?  To Zen, to a deeper understanding of the ideas of this marvelous book?  Close the book and the finger falls on the parable of the Zen master and FIVE TONS OF FLAX!  A coincidence?  Is there such a thing?  Does it matter?  Is it true, is this what Mal-2 is talking about?  Is it even relevant?  Is it relevant that the conversation leading to the Zen parable claims even false things are true and everything is irrelevant?

This book will drive you mad.  Or is it your own mind that will drive you mad?   This the point of the Law of Fives, to illustrate the ability of the mind to see connections, to create connections, between things which may not be connected.  It's also the point of Starbuck's Pebbles. That you will find evidence to support what you want to believe is a major theme of the book.  The search for evidence can drive you mad.  If you want to believe silly things, you can find evidence to support them.   I mean David Icke has convinced himself that he has evidence that reptiloids control the British monarchy...wait...I want to believe that people will believe anything...could David Icke be cashing in on my desire to believe a conspiracy nutjob like David Icke can exist in this world?

This book will drive you mad.  Or at least make you maddening to others.  The warning is on Page 5.  A man dares to seek great wisdom.  Some people see him as a holy man.  Others think he is a shithead.  Upon realizing this, he is enlightened.  The moral of the story?  What do you think Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao thinks of His Holiness the Dalai Lama?  Everyone looks like an asshole to someone.  Don't sweat it.

Besides, and the book makes this point several times, Discordians are everywhere.  You can find them because they stick out from the crowd by sticking apart fromthe crowd.  Sometimes they form Cabals, sometimes their Cabals are one person.  They are philosophers, scientists, magicians, artists, maniacs and weirdos.  Dynamic, creative people who struggle with understanding why there is so much strife and discord in the world.  These people are more likely to recognize the genius of this Erisian madness.  These are the people who get Discordia.

Erisians are fundamentally nice people. They don't pray, because praying tends to get whole villages wiped out.  That shows concern for the well-being of others.  Another example is the reference to the Brunswick Shrine.  If the POEE visit it 5 times, the world ends.  Recognizing this, they never visit it.  Obviously the end of the world is not desirable.  When Mal-2 and Omar seek out Eris they find images of an evil bitch with a knife, but She puts  them straight when they consult their pineal gland.  Our Goddess is neither hateful nor malicious, just mischievous and sometimes bitchy.  She is particularly unfond of those who snub her.  Her religion recognizes everyone as a Pope, the highest of honored positions.

The Principia Discordia presents its own concept of moral truth, both by asserting the nature of its deity -- not wrathful, just bitchy, especially towards those who don't embrace all her creations, whether they be snubbers, and by introducing the character of Greyface.  The rule maker and enforcer.  Sometimes his rules are constructive and creative, more often they merely transform creative chaos into destructive chaos.  Unintentionally creating destructive chaos makes you an idiot.  Intentionally creating it  makes you an ass.  Remember:  King Kong died for your sins.  Watch the movie.  What kills King Kong?  It is the imposition of order on to chaos, the attempt to control the wild.

Greyface's problem is that he has no sense of humor and he thinks Order is its own end.  He wants Order whether or not it hurts others.  When Mal-2 notes that everyone hates this, Eris tells his "Well, then stop."  Stop trying to impose concepts of order and disorder on chaos.  Order can be every bit as destructive as Disorder, because it's all an illusion.  It just gets people hurt, and everyone hates that.  I won't repeat the whole spiel about the Eristic and Aneristic illusion, because it's the two most straightforward pages in the book.  You know the drill, change your perspective what was orderly is disorderly, what was disorderly is orderly.

Discordianism is not about Order vs Disorder.  It's also not about the Disorder Vs Order.  Both of these are illusory choices.  Discordianism is about recognizing the human ability to create order from chaos, and rejecting the Order vs Disorder dichotomy and embracing a Creative vs Destructive dichotomy.  Discordianism is an all-Creative trip.  Discordianism picks a side.    It says so right on Page 00063, clear as day.  "We work towards the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable, and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable."

And that is the whole point of Discordia.   Creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable, and if you don't lighten up we're all going to die.

Nonsense as salvation.

DK, I don't know as much about you as the others, since I wasn't about to read 100+ pages of shit-flinging, but I have a question for you... do you seriously, and I mean seriously, believe that what you wrote about the PD in the above quote was anything we hadn't already known and discussed previously?  

What part of your write-up do you think was intended to be enlightening to others?  I can go through Ulysses and recite what happens in each part, but does that mean I really read it?  Or understood it?  Or would be able to explain what is important about it to others?  Your write up was little more than Cliff Notes written for people who already know the Principia word for word.

What did you hope to accomplish?


For my next trick, I will prove that the Principia Discordia can be used to answer any question about absolutely anything.

We know that trick... its called the Law of Fives.  
"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 03:54:03 pm »
Quote from: Dead Kennedy
Discordians are everywhere.  You can find them because they stick out from the crowd by sticking apart fromthe crowd.  Sometimes they form Cabals, sometimes their Cabals are one person.  They are philosophers, scientists, magicians, artists, maniacs and weirdos.  Dynamic, creative people who struggle with understanding why there is so much strife and discord in the world.  These people are more likely to recognize the genius of this Erisian madness.  These are the people who get Discordia.

Only those people are Discordian?

I notice sometimes that people do seem to get this idea... that the tribe of philosophers, clowns, etc are The Discordians. Yet, this doesn't seem correct to me, in retrospect. Those are the people writing the book, this tribe of madmen interested in the doings of She What Done It All. We could say that they are the Joshua Norton Cabal, or POEE. However, if one chooses to accept what is written on the topic... Every Man, Woman and Child is a Discordian... the only difference lies in their House, The Rising Podge or The Rising Hodge.

;-)

This was my biggest point of disagreement with DK's summary.  

I think, for this board, I come from a somewhat unique perspective or approach to Discordianism.  I entered the world of Discordianism through the PD.  Shortly after reading the book, I found this place.  What I didn't do was start collecting and reading all of the other Discordian-type works.  I do not own and have never read a RAW book.  For one, with a little child, I don't have a lot of free time to be reading books.  For another, I guess I'm more interested in using the concepts in the PD as a springboard for more original discussions about this stuff.  That's why I've enjoyed the BIP stuff so much.  

Getting back to the OP.  I seriously believe that the concepts in the PD are concepts that most people could get.  I think any ordinary person who wasn't one of the above listed peoples could get the Discordian concepts, when boiled down and stripped of the trappings, cliche's, and in-humor.  I think that is what our concept of the BIP, in some way, has accomplished.  A way to boil down some of the no-brainers into a somewhat more accessible format, aside from the purported darkness of the thing.  I mean, the whole grid thing is an idea that is very old and pre-dates the PD.  We're all different but we're all the same in that we're all different in the same ways.  


I don't think it takes a special person to "get it".  But it certainly does take a certain approach to "get it".  
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 04:10:33 pm »
 ... What I didn't do was start collecting and reading all of the other Discordian-type works.  I do not own and have never read a RAW book.  For one, with a little child, I don't have a lot of free time to be reading books.  For another, I guess I'm more interested in using the concepts in the PD as a springboard for more original discussions about this stuff.  That's why I've enjoyed the BIP stuff so much.  

So how do you know what are 'original discussions'... if you're not familiar with the discussions that have already taken place?
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LMNO, PhD (life continues)

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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2009, 04:24:17 pm »
I think he meant, "I don't want to talk about the hand in the PD, I want to talk about what the hand in the PD is pointing at."


If I may use a recursive metaphor.
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2009, 04:24:17 pm »
 ... What I didn't do was start collecting and reading all of the other Discordian-type works.  I do not own and have never read a RAW book.  For one, with a little child, I don't have a lot of free time to be reading books.  For another, I guess I'm more interested in using the concepts in the PD as a springboard for more original discussions about this stuff.  That's why I've enjoyed the BIP stuff so much.  

So how do you know what are 'original discussions'... if you're not familiar with the discussions that have already taken place?

That's why I used the word "more" as a qualifier.  The discussions obviously have involved references to those authors but they haven't been complete rehashes either. 
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2009, 04:30:14 pm »
I think he meant, "I don't want to talk about the hand in the PD, I want to talk about what the hand in the PD is pointing at."


If I may use a recursive metaphor.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.  It's not that I don't have any interest in the RAW stuff, I just don't have the time to delve into it.  I mean, also, if you were all a bunch of uninteresting idiots that didn't have good points and interesting ideas, I might be more compelled to read that stuff. 

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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2009, 04:41:41 pm »
 ... What I didn't do was start collecting and reading all of the other Discordian-type works.  I do not own and have never read a RAW book.  For one, with a little child, I don't have a lot of free time to be reading books.  For another, I guess I'm more interested in using the concepts in the PD as a springboard for more original discussions about this stuff.  That's why I've enjoyed the BIP stuff so much.  

So how do you know what are 'original discussions'... if you're not familiar with the discussions that have already taken place?

That's why I used the word "more" as a qualifier.  The discussions obviously have involved references to those authors but they haven't been complete rehashes either. 

Well not complete rehashes... but I have, several times smiled when reading a thread because it starts out somewhere and eventually walks up Bob's front door and rings the doorbell. ;-) The guy wrote some fantastic shit... in fact, I'd argue that most of his models/metaphors are as easy to grok, if not more easy than our BiP. However, that's because he was a professional writer that had a lot of brilliant people to bounce ideas off of and rework material through.

In my opinion, a lot of the philosophical stuff we discuss doesn't so much go one step beyond Bob, as much as a sort of Cha-Cha around him ;-)

I certianly don't think the old man was perfect or Buddha or infallible etc. In fact, I'm pretty proud of the number of times I argued with the guy... but dismissing his work out of hand (which is how that initial comment came off, your clarifications are excellent BTW), seems kinda weird... like Einstein saying "Ah fuck that Newton guy, he can suck my left nut, I'm not gonna read anything he wrote"

Of course, maybe that would have been better for all concerned. No nukes, no weird ass cats that are dead/not dead, no Young Einstein movie....

Yes, maybe Al should have burned his books on Physics ;-)
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2009, 04:42:30 pm »
I HAVE A QUESTION
is DK an upgrade or a prototype of loveshade

depends if he's a pedo
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.

Dante

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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2009, 04:44:55 pm »
Rat:  Yeah, I wasn't dismissing his work as unimportant to Discordianism.  I was saying it wasn't important enough for me, personally, to bother with considering the lack of time resources to devote to said bothering. 
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2009, 04:52:20 pm »
Rat:  Yeah, I wasn't dismissing his work as unimportant to Discordianism.  I was saying it wasn't important enough for me, personally, to bother with considering the lack of time resources to devote to said bothering. 

;-)

Ya know, you might enjoy "Reality is What You Can Get Away With" its lots of short bits/skits/jokes etc. ie you can read it in bits while on the toilet ;-)

In fact, IIRC I think you'd particularly appreciate the humor. Also, the book shows that we beat the FSM by a decade or two on the importance of flying pasta... Keep The Lasagna Flying!
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2009, 04:54:12 pm »
I'll look into it.  Thanks for the recommendation.   :)
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Re: DK EXPLAINS PD, ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2009, 05:27:56 pm »
no, seriously. go die in a fire. no one here likes homophobes OR mysogynists so we've certainly got no use for someone that's both, and for the most puerile of reasons.

AMEN!!!!

p.s. DK go read some Sartre and come to the conclusion the only authentic thing you can do is end it, then act upon it, thanks...
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