Author Topic: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...  (Read 4346 times)

Cain

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2009, 10:54:16 pm »
Hate crimes are not the same as hate speech laws though.

Hate crimes are where you commit (usually violent) crimes against people due to them being part of a racial, political, religious or sexual orientation grouping.  Hate crimes are more damaging than normal variations of the same crime, and there is English common law precedence concerning intent as well.

If you don't want to be found guilty of a hate crime, then its very simple: don't go beating up blacks, Jews, socialists and gays because they are black, Jewish, socialists or gay.
doesn't this become a bit of a catch 22? if i get in a bar fight with a gay black Jew etc over unrelated reasons (including self defence) and stomp him sucsessfuly, i become a commiter of hate crimes and may be imprisoned, in a situation where if i did the exact same thing to a white  chritian redneck i would be set free and maybe even be given a slap on the back for defending myself..

Intent has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

If you stomped a gay black Jew while saying "take that you fucking faggot nigger kike" repeatedly, then you'd probably be charged.  If you did it dressed in a KKK uniform with a Confederate flag over your back, and then posted the vid to Youtube, then you'd probably be charged.  If you said "what the fuck is your problem?" and stomp him, chances are you wouldn't be.

It would be up to the prosecution to prove that the attack was motivated by those features and not by any other factor.  Will some people try to abuse the system?  Probably.  But without evidence, it would seem to be tricky.  Plus every colour, religion and orientation is protected, so you could easily counter-claim that their preoccupation with using their defining features betrays a certain mindset, which might explain the fight.

Iason Ouabache

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2009, 11:33:27 pm »
Hate crimes are not the same as hate speech laws though.

Hate crimes are where you commit (usually violent) crimes against people due to them being part of a racial, political, religious or sexual orientation grouping.  Hate crimes are more damaging than normal variations of the same crime, and there is English common law precedence concerning intent as well.

If you don't want to be found guilty of a hate crime, then its very simple: don't go beating up blacks, Jews, socialists and gays because they are black, Jewish, socialists or gay.
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I should mention that there is also this meme that the hate crime law will somehow protect pedophiles. It's been making the rounds at Rapture Ready. For some reason they can't get it through their fucking skulls what the legal definitions of "hate crime" and "sexual orientation" are.
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fomenter

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2009, 11:36:32 pm »
i can see it being harder to prove in court in a trial, i can also see a lot of opportunity to abuse if you are in a crowed of{x} and the whole bunch of them start shouting he said " racial comment" it ends up in a police report and then becomes a part of a prosecutors case..  
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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2009, 11:42:39 pm »
Iason do you have link?

sounds like Ron Graham babbling incoherently again...
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Iason Ouabache

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 12:07:18 am »
Iason do you have link?

sounds like Ron Graham babbling incoherently again...
 :lulz:

WingNutDail pushing the meme: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=101393

Right Wing Watch debunking it: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/debunking-another-hate-crimes-lie
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BabylonHoruv

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 12:41:16 am »
But the problem is people DO get put in jail in Canada for Hate Speech, and people are also denied entrance to Canada for it.  Hell, there's a group trying to get George W. Bush barred from entering Canada at the moment.

I don't have time to look right now, but I will get the citations tonight about that.

However, concerning hate crimes, I totally agree.  I won't stomach violence of any sort.

barring W from entering Canada may have more to do with war crimes than hate speech.
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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 12:47:10 am »
Hate crimes are not the same as hate speech laws though.

Hate crimes are where you commit (usually violent) crimes against people due to them being part of a racial, political, religious or sexual orientation grouping.  Hate crimes are more damaging than normal variations of the same crime, and there is English common law precedence concerning intent as well.

If you don't want to be found guilty of a hate crime, then its very simple: don't go beating up blacks, Jews, socialists and gays because they are black, Jewish, socialists or gay.
doesn't this become a bit of a catch 22? if i get in a bar fight with a gay black Jew etc over unrelated reasons (including self defence) and stomp him sucsessfuly, i become a commiter of hate crimes and may be imprisoned, in a situation where if i did the exact same thing to a white  chritian redneck i would be set free and maybe even be given a slap on the back for defending myself..

Intent has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

If you stomped a gay black Jew while saying "take that you fucking faggot nigger kike" repeatedly, then you'd probably be charged.  If you did it dressed in a KKK uniform with a Confederate flag over your back, and then posted the vid to Youtube, then you'd probably be charged.  If you said "what the fuck is your problem?" and stomp him, chances are you wouldn't be.

It would be up to the prosecution to prove that the attack was motivated by those features and not by any other factor.  Will some people try to abuse the system?  Probably.  But without evidence, it would seem to be tricky.  Plus every colour, religion and orientation is protected, so you could easily counter-claim that their preoccupation with using their defining features betrays a certain mindset, which might explain the fight.

Why is it worse to beat someone up for being black, Jewish, gay, or whatever than it is to beat them up becuase you are a violent person or because you want to take their money?
You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2009, 12:50:35 am »
Hate crimes are not the same as hate speech laws though.

Hate crimes are where you commit (usually violent) crimes against people due to them being part of a racial, political, religious or sexual orientation grouping.  Hate crimes are more damaging than normal variations of the same crime, and there is English common law precedence concerning intent as well.

If you don't want to be found guilty of a hate crime, then its very simple: don't go beating up blacks, Jews, socialists and gays because they are black, Jewish, socialists or gay.
doesn't this become a bit of a catch 22? if i get in a bar fight with a gay black Jew etc over unrelated reasons (including self defence) and stomp him sucsessfuly, i become a commiter of hate crimes and may be imprisoned, in a situation where if i did the exact same thing to a white  chritian redneck i would be set free and maybe even be given a slap on the back for defending myself..

Intent has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

If you stomped a gay black Jew while saying "take that you fucking faggot nigger kike" repeatedly, then you'd probably be charged.  If you did it dressed in a KKK uniform with a Confederate flag over your back, and then posted the vid to Youtube, then you'd probably be charged.  If you said "what the fuck is your problem?" and stomp him, chances are you wouldn't be.

It would be up to the prosecution to prove that the attack was motivated by those features and not by any other factor.  Will some people try to abuse the system?  Probably.  But without evidence, it would seem to be tricky.  Plus every colour, religion and orientation is protected, so you could easily counter-claim that their preoccupation with using their defining features betrays a certain mindset, which might explain the fight.

Why is it worse to beat someone up for being black, Jewish, gay, or whatever than it is to beat them up becuase you are a violent person or because you want to take their money?

Crime of mindless hate vs robbery. PC police have approved this message.

Iason Ouabache

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 12:54:30 am »
Why is it worse to beat someone up for being black, Jewish, gay, or whatever than it is to beat them up becuase you are a violent person or because you want to take their money?
Hate crimes are politically based, much like terrorism. They are meant to teach a lesson to a particular group. By violently attacking someone based on his race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. you are telling the rest of the people in that group that they are not welcome and that they had better not try to make waves.
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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2009, 01:33:30 am »
I'm actually on the article writer's side in this case, I think Canada's 'Hate Speech' law stifles too much free speech.

Any restriction of free speech (as opposed to an overt act) means that you don't have ANY free speech, just speech they choose to allow you.
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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2009, 09:21:24 am »

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2009, 10:47:10 am »
GWB actually visited Toronto when I was up there, along with Bill Clinton. Some people I was staying with were writing things on shoes and getting ready for the protest.

you can't do that. see, for a "President of the USA", "doin it wrong for 8 years" is a political orientation, and throwing shoes at him would be a hate crime.

cause ask your friend, if he had not been President of the USA, or had not been doin it wrong for 8 years, would he have thrown shoes at him?

no?

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Cain

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2009, 12:42:58 pm »
Interestingly political persuasion was going to be added to the list of things that come under genocide if you attempt to kill lots of people for it, after WWII, but Stalin vetoed the legislation, because he knew he was hella guilty of that one.  And then everyone sort of forget about it, because COMMUNISTS!?!?! or CAPITALISTS!?!?! were attempting to undermine our fine democracy/workers paradise, and we might actually need to round them all up and kill them at some point.

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2009, 02:28:54 pm »
But the problem is people DO get put in jail in Canada for Hate Speech, and people are also denied entrance to Canada for it.  Hell, there's a group trying to get George W. Bush barred from entering Canada at the moment.

I don't have time to look right now, but I will get the citations tonight about that.

Here's a good example of what I was talking about:  Ernst Zundel was a citizen of Toronto, he was jailed many times for distributing anti-semitic pamphlets.  As much as I find what he believes reprehensible, I consider that bullshit.
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Thurnez Isa

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Re: The US will become like Canada and Sweden...
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2009, 04:51:39 pm »
Zundel was arrested pre 1980, or before the charter... For those of you who doen't know Canada pre-1980 was using the British constitution as our own..
His other arrest resulted in him be first convicted then acquitted by the supreme court because the conviction violated the charter
Then his other arrests were because of immigration problems, cause he managed to get himself arrested in Germany and the US
Again I agree with you in principle, but again the problem doesn't lay with what Zundel would have you believe

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/
for those who don`t know who we`re talking about
of course another problem with Zundel's case is he's not a Canadian Citizen (his citizenship was denied/ and yes i do agree with you that maybe he shouldn't have been denied on his anti-semitism alone, but on the other hand the US also denied him)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:02:08 pm by Thurnez Isa »
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