Author Topic: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?  (Read 46647 times)

navkat

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Someone help me out here: why does it seem like so many people who call themselves "discordians" (on one sense or another) have anti-libertarian, Progressive views lately?

I'm not trolling around for a quick argument, I just feel really alone lately. I don't fit in with Conservatives for societal reasons and I don't fit with Progressives/Liberals/whatever because of my staunch individualist ideals.

It seems like "Libertarian" has become a dirty word lately. I'm not trying to sound alarmist with my tin-foil haberdashery but the current wave of extreme Progressivism feels oppressive and a little bit fascist to me. I start to wonder if perhaps the Alex Jones set has it all figured out after all...and then I watch some clip of them whispering maniacally about Bilderberg into some supaSecret hidden camera (fnord) and I'm suddenly left with the realization that I may be doomed to live a life curled up and crying in the fetal position in the bottom of my shower for the dreadful loneliness.

Isn't there a fun-loving, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pance, free-hugs-gay-marriage-and-legal-weed-for-all group of "Conservatives" out there who actually feel an iota of love/acceptance for the people they're screaming about Liberty/Bill of Rights/Less Government beside?

How about the other way? Aren't there any "party people" out there who DON'T feel it necessary to push their "sacrifice individual liberty to achieve common goals for the greater good" ideology on me? Cause as far as I'm concerned; compelling me by force to do shit "for the greater good" is just as bad as making me do shit "because that's what jeebus said."

Am I the only one who sees the current president as a happy-faced, kindhearted supaMan in a glowing, psychedelic BIP?


You can do anything you want, as long as you do the Right Thing.


« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:11:40 pm by navkat »

AFK

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Well, if it is any consolation, I'm not too enamored with the Conservatives, the Liberals, OR, the Libertarians.  Also, your picture is busted. 
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navkat

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Well, if it is any consolation, I'm not too enamored with the Conservatives, the Liberals, OR, the Libertarians.  Also, your picture is busted.
  

Weird. I see it fine. Must be cached. brb. Fixed.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:12:17 pm by navkat »

Jenne

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*paging Ratatosk*

Actually, I think it's just the Libertarians who don't know their asses from their elbows that people are "unfriendly" with.  And really, that can be stretched to fit anyone who's politically minded.

Also, being Discordian is not antithetical to any sort of political persuasion, though the "Think for yourself, Schmuck" plays heavily into whatever might be brainwashed into you. 

LMNO

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You may not have noticed, but we haven't been praising Obama all that much.

Each party has their own specific kind of fuck up.  We tend to mock them all.





But I think we should get specific here: What kind of "Extreme Progressive" opression are you referring to?  Because as far as I can see, Obama's actually being fairly moderate, even slightly right-leaning.

Cain

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Libertarianism is Marxism of the right.

Mainly because 99.9% of Libertarians are apologists for corporate interests, who already have too much influence, and dismantling checks on their powers isn't going to weaken them, contra what Reason magazine may argue, and the rest simply want an excuse to sit around and smoke pot without getting busted for it (and that is fine, but lets not pretend this is a sophisticated and nuanced standpoint).

They're also bad philosophers.  Its funny, because when you read many supposedly "libertarian" thinkers, like Hayek, for example, you actually find they don't advocate anything as far reaching or as patently nonsensical as Libertarians do.  Hayek was very much in favour of things like taxation to provide non-market goods minimum income and regulations for environmental protection. Adam Smith supported progressive taxation.  Milton Friedman came up with the notion of negative income taxes.  Etc etc

Basically, its a fairy story suited to people who want to believe the State is evil, but the people who bankroll the State are good.

navkat

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Well, right. I use the term "libertarian" not as a party affiliation, but rather, as a general adjective.

to break it down: I feel sort of separate from the most lovely, awesome, beautiful people in my life because it seems they've all adopted this militant attitude that dictates that social awareness/responsibility must be imposed on everyone. They love me and I love them dearly, but they think I'm a bit of a paranoid kook and can't understand why I would want to preserve a bunch of "obsolete" liberties that they see as selfish and a little dangerous.

At the same time; I'm not finding a fit in the "Less government/Conservative legislation" people because they:
1. Subscribe to this belief that ANY government is a conspiracy to make us all into New World Order, Matrix-esque slaves.
2. Are just as Progressive as the Liberals...only they're doing it for JEBUS instead of global warming and Universal Healthcare.
3. Are humorless sticks in the mud who can't see the value in good-natured marauding for fun's sake.

Jenne

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Sounds to me like you're trying to fit a label onto yourself that doesn't quite fit--as you find when people with that label don't have the same beliefs as you do.

I'd just drop the label altogether or find one that's less confining if you must do so.

LMNO

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No offense navkat, but your generalizations are so sweeping and your examples are so specific to yourself, all I can comment on is that you seem to be hanging out with incredibly stupid people.


First, what "social awarness" are you referring to, in regards to Obama's policies?

Second, what "obsolete liberties" are the Obama administration removing?*

Third, it might be a good idea to scale back on the rhetoric and talk about what politicians are doing rather that what ideologues are saying they're doing.












*Above and beyond the standards set by previous administrations, of course.

navkat

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Libertarianism is Marxism of the right.

Mainly because 99.9% of Libertarians are apologists for corporate interests, who already have too much influence, and dismantling checks on their powers isn't going to weaken them, contra what Reason magazine may argue, and the rest simply want an excuse to sit around and smoke pot without getting busted for it (and that is fine, but lets not pretend this is a sophisticated and nuanced standpoint).

They're also bad philosophers.  Its funny, because when you read many supposedly "libertarian" thinkers, like Hayek, for example, you actually find they don't advocate anything as far reaching or as patently nonsensical as Libertarians do.  Hayek was very much in favour of things like taxation to provide non-market goods minimum income and regulations for environmental protection. Adam Smith supported progressive taxation.  Milton Friedman came up with the notion of negative income taxes.  Etc etc

Basically, its a fairy story suited to people who want to believe the State is evil, but the people who bankroll the State are good.

I get that too sometimes.

I personally agree with the whole Thomas Paine "government is a necessary evil" thing, but I also recognize the fact that the whole point of this democratic republic thing we have here was that no entity should have absolute power over the many...and unreigned corporatism not only allows that--it encourages it.

I'm personally of the belief that the whole thing went in the ditch as soon as we stopped defining "Incorporated" as an entity licensed and governed by The People to be disbanded at will and started defining corporations AS natural persons.

AFK

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Sounds to me like you're trying to fit a label onto yourself that doesn't quite fit--as you find when people with that label don't have the same beliefs as you do.

I'd just drop the label altogether or find one that's less confining if you must do so.

This is the correct motorcycle.  

Why, navkat, do you even need a political label or ideology?

I personally prefer to be somewhat nomadic Politically.  I don't mean nomadic in the sense of wandering from one camp to the next, but in terms of just no really settling in to any particular mainstreamed ideology.  I agree with Conservatives sometimes, Liberals sometimes, Libertarians once in awhile, and Greens, well, okay I never agree with the Greens, but in the end I'm perfectly happy just being a political party of one.  I just wish I could get someone to fund me.   :D
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Jenne

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Same here, RWHN--but I have to say that as I age, I agree more with the IDEALS of the liberal set, but not necessarily their weak-minded, power-grabbing actions.

All politicians are pigs, some just are labeled with a blue tag, some with a red tag.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Libertarianism, as Cain pointed out, is not the same beast that it was even 30 years ago. The party is no longer philosophical, as much as rhetoric based these days. Libertarianism, ala Jefferson, Hayek etc isn't the sort of thing that the party tries to do today. Philosophically, I think we humans are better off with as little government influence as possible. I think most conservatives and progressives agree with that statement. They all simply disagree with how much "as little" actually is. No progressive I've met wants the government in all their business and personal life. No Conservative I've met wants the government completely out. And Libertarians are split between wankers that somehow have become apologists for corporations and proponents of idiotic ideas like "Let's make all the roads private", and the other libertarians, that like the idea of limited government (Cain likes to call them pot smokers, but I think there are some few of us that arre a bit more nuanced.... then again I may be stoned).

In the US right now, it seems to me that a Discordian could be in any of the political parties. Just because you're Dem/GOP/Lib doesn't mean you must agree with their whole platform. Currently, I think there are some sane people across all the parties and the media focuses only on the nutjobs that sell papers... and Internet debators rely only on the extremes and stereotypes to argue their position. Generally speaking, that's why I am not a member of any of these fucked up political parties, I try to TFY,S! at the Ballot box ;-) I agree with Mr. Jefferson that likened government to fire. A necessary and dangerous thing, which if it gets too big, becomes uncontrollable. Many Libertarian/Conservatives seem to forget the 'necessary' bit and many progressives seem to forget the 'uncontrollable' bit.

Of course, overall this is a joke since none of the political parties here in the US have a consistent philosophy applied to their platform anyway. Every political platform in the US has a trapdoor and a rope with a funny knot, methinks.

Though, I have noticed the same thing navkat... It does seem that many Discordians have a very progressive/liberal bent and tend to poke at the more libertarian approach. I think that has less to do with them being Discordian, and more to do with them being progressives/liberals, the poor sods.


Quote
I'm personally of the belief that the whole thing went in the ditch as soon as we stopped defining "Incorporated" as an entity licensed and governed by The People to be disbanded at will and started defining corporations AS natural persons.

100% TROOF
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AFK

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Same here, RWHN--but I have to say that as I age, I agree more with the IDEALS of the liberal set, but not necessarily their weak-minded, power-grabbing actions.

All politicians are pigs, some just are labeled with a blue tag, some with a red tag.

I'm there too.  I would totally love to see the liberals, ACTUALLY, ram some meaningful reforms on energy policy.  We talk a big game, in America, about being innovative geniuses, but no one is issuing any kind of meaningful challenge to the motivators to make big changes in how we gather and use energy.  We probably could put a bunch of people to work developing wind, solar, geo-thermal, and all that stuff, but it's all campaing slogans and smoke and mirrors.  They really need to STFU and actually put the shit through Congress and make it reality.  But, they won't.  I have complete faith that this 60-seat "Supermajority" is going to amount to a big pile of diddly squat.  [/soapbox]
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Jenne

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Same here, RWHN--but I have to say that as I age, I agree more with the IDEALS of the liberal set, but not necessarily their weak-minded, power-grabbing actions.

All politicians are pigs, some just are labeled with a blue tag, some with a red tag.

I'm there too.  I would totally love to see the liberals, ACTUALLY, ram some meaningful reforms on energy policy.  We talk a big game, in America, about being innovative geniuses, but no one is issuing any kind of meaningful challenge to the motivators to make big changes in how we gather and use energy.  We probably could put a bunch of people to work developing wind, solar, geo-thermal, and all that stuff, but it's all campaing slogans and smoke and mirrors.  They really need to STFU and actually put the shit through Congress and make it reality.  But, they won't.  I have complete faith that this 60-seat "Supermajority" is going to amount to a big pile of diddly squat.  [/soapbox]

HEAR HEAR!  Yes, we activists have a bitter pill to swallow when it comes to the philosophy behind the machine vs. what the machine actually produces.