Author Topic: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?  (Read 45410 times)

Cain

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What if a free society needed to draft its citizens in order to remain free?
What if it needed to limit oil imports to protect the economic freedom of its citizens from unfriendly foreigners?
What if it needed to force its citizens to become sufficiently educated to sustain a free society?
What if it needed to deprive landowners of the freedom to refuse to sell their property as a precondition for giving everyone freedom of movement on highways?
What if it needed to deprive citizens of the freedom to import cheap foreign labor in order to keep out poor foreigners who would vote for economically unsound, massively socialistic wealth redistribution?

Libertarianism fails to solve any of these convincingly.

Also, Russia vs Japan. 

In Russia, there was virtually no regulation, and a small gang of kleptocrats came to power.  Japan, on the other hand, is highly regulated and maintains one of the highest living standards in the world, with a stable and (mostly) fair and democratic government.  The pattern repeats itself throughout history.  Strong states able to intervene and provide stability through the provision of non-market goods have been economically healthier, and those which have been weak have succumbed to oligarchy and a massive reduction in standards of living, economic and otherwise. 

For another example, Libertarians are really into the whole private currency thing.  However, they ignore that in the past, private currencies have been tried, and they have led to a situation of mass fraud and currency debasement, and then concentration of power in the hands of a few banks once people get sick of living in that sort of mess and sort the majority of them out.

LMNO

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I'm still trying to figure out what sort of "oppressively progressive" things are being forced upon me; and what "liberties" are paying the price.


navkat

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Sounds to me like you're trying to fit a label onto yourself that doesn't quite fit--as you find when people with that label don't have the same beliefs as you do.

I'd just drop the label altogether or find one that's less confining if you must do so.

This is the correct motorcycle.  

Why, navkat, do you even need a political label or ideology?

I personally prefer to be somewhat nomadic Politically.  I don't mean nomadic in the sense of wandering from one camp to the next, but in terms of just no really settling in to any particular mainstreamed ideology.  I agree with Conservatives sometimes, Liberals sometimes, Libertarians once in awhile, and Greens, well, okay I never agree with the Greens, but in the end I'm perfectly happy just being a political party of one.  I just wish I could get someone to fund me.   :D

Because these things matter to me. A lot.

The fact is: I really do have a problem with the Progressive movement that seems to have a lot of influence in this current government lately. There are a lot of changes that I want to see made...that I want to HELP make. I care.

I think the current Cap & Trade thing is dreadful, to start.
I'm angry about the stimulus nonsense and the handling of the budget, stim and TARP bailouts thus far by BOTH admins.
I want to rewind (abolish) the former administration's outright abolition of the Fourth Amendment and the entire body of the USA Patriot act.
I want term limits on all public offices.
I believe when Government starts taking legislative interest on aspects of our daily lives (prohibition, energy use, tobacco use, personal health initiatives, judeo-christian morality, etc) that IS totalitarianism and it needs to be checked.

I want these things.
I care about making these things happen.
I want to surround myself with people who also want to take part in making these things happen--but for the right reasons and with the right 'tude. I believe there's strength in numbers and in community with like-minded people. I'm tired of standing in the ranks of those who scream about the Tyrrany of Government, only to be pummeled to death with a whole new set of ideological nonsense they'd make law if THEIR guy was in charge right now.

And I'm lonely. That's it. There's no more pure explanation than that that I can give you. I just feel all alone in this. I want people to talk to about it.

Jenne

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Of course, overall this is a joke since none of the political parties here in the US have a consistent philosophy applied to their platform anyway. Every political platform in the US has a trapdoor and a rope with a funny knot, methinks.


I think that's all parties, worldwide, to be quite honest.  I think in the US, we do try to hold the parties to some philosophical grounding, but in the end, it's all about what you can do for yourself while you wield that  much power over so many people.  So the "hilarity" that is politics ensues.  But I think the US has a lot of honesty in its parties, or attempted honesty at least, that might not be there in other parts of the world.

LMNO

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I think the current Cap & Trade thing is dreadful, to start.
The cap part, or the trade part?

Quote
I'm angry about the stimulus nonsense and the handling of the budget, stim and TARP bailouts thus far by BOTH admins.
Are you upset that the government tried to keep the economy from crashing, or the way they went about it?

Quote
I want term limits on all public offices.
If the voters must re-elect the public officers, why set term limits?

Quote
ve when Government starts taking legislative interest on aspects of our daily lives (prohibition, energy use, tobacco use, personal health initiatives, judeo-christian morality, etc) that IS totalitarianism and it needs to be checked.
Considering the stress that tobacco and alcohol put on our healthcare system and ultimately society at large, why do you consider these personal choices?

Quote
And I'm lonely. That's it. There's no more pure explanation than that that I can give you. I just feel all alone in this. I want people to talk to about it.

Well, you've come to the right place.

Jenne

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I want these things.
I care about making these things happen.
I want to surround myself with people who also want to take part in making these things happen--but for the right reasons and with the right 'tude. I believe there's strength in numbers and in community with like-minded people. I'm tired of standing in the ranks of those who scream about the Tyrrany of Government, only to be pummeled to death with a whole new set of ideological nonsense they'd make law if THEIR guy was in charge right now.

And I'm lonely. That's it. There's no more pure explanation than that that I can give you. I just feel all alone in this. I want people to talk to about it.

What you are wanting is not unreasonable nor is it ever uhheard of...I think you made the right decision to bring it up--it's the first step, and quite a good thread is coming out of it.  As for finding people IRL that share your same views...might I suggest some sort of grassroots efforts near you that are mired in altruistic ideals?  I'm not sure with such a diverse set of beliefs you will find your exact match...but then I believe that's the case for most thinking individuals.

I'm sort of curious which yahoos you've found in your searches for likeminded people...

AFK

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I honestly don't think there is enough progressive influence in the government.  Just ask the 200+ gay servicemen who have been discharged since Obama took office.  And then yesterday he tells a gathering of them that he's working to get them equality.  Bullshit!  He's sitting on his thumbs.  
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Jenne

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Also, a word on term limits--CA voted in these gnarly term limits about 10 years ago.  The fall-out:  you get a buncha wanking politicos who don't really give a shit about what they are working on for long enough to get anything done.  The learning curve is so steep and their time is so short, that if they DO take up a cause of yours, beware!  Chances are they will not get the R&D and then leg done on time to pass anything close to what's needed.  If there's a deadlock on the Congressional floor, you're screwed.

The upshot:  you get a perpetual freshman congress that doesn't end up doing anything but look towards their NEXT election.

Jenne

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I honestly don't think there is enough progressive influence in the government.  Just ask the 200+ gay servicemen who have been discharged since Obama took office.  And then yesterday he tells a gathering of them that he's working to get them equality.  Bullshit!  He's sitting on his thumbs. 

Shooting himself in the ass, The Smiler is!

navkat

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I think the current Cap & Trade thing is dreadful, to start.
The cap part, or the trade part?

The whole damned thing. I'm not sure I believe the science is there to back up the Climate Change argument, but I'm willing to accept the typically-left belief that we should give a shit about it "just in case" anyway.

What I have a problem with is enacting a totalitarian piece of legislation that monitors and rations use and basically treats it like another commodity over which the all-powerful, all-seeing Government in its Infinite Wisdom holds a Monopoly in this country. If you don't see a capacity for a whole new realm of abuse there, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And doing this "in the meantime until we work out all the kinks" is a fascist social experiment that I can't abide by.

Additionally; it's not going to fix a goddamned thing; it's just going to put self-imposed expenses and limitations on our GDP, thereby crippling our economy at a time in Global history when we can least afford to be anti-competitive. Let's face it: we're not going to slow down our pace of consumption, we're just going to outsource our economy to foreign countries like China who will be more than happy to pick up the slack that our domestic industry can no longer afford...for a price. And they aren't planning on capping THEIR use anytime soon so it's a problem unsolved...just relocated.

Quote
Quote
I'm angry about the stimulus nonsense and the handling of the budget, stim and TARP bailouts thus far by BOTH admins.
Are you upset that the government tried to keep the economy from crashing, or the way they went about it?

The way they went about it, mostly.
Quote
Quote
I want term limits on all public offices.
If the voters must re-elect the public officers, why set term limits?

Because it takes the whole "Carreer Politician" off the table entirely and puts the focus back on "Public Servant." Our representatives will stop looking at their service as "trying to hold onto my career/position as long as possible by any means necessary and start seeing this as a limited gig with a purpose of accomplishing true goals for the people who voted them in.

Quote
Quote
ve when Government starts taking legislative interest on aspects of our daily lives (prohibition, energy use, tobacco use, personal health initiatives, judeo-christian morality, etc) that IS totalitarianism and it needs to be checked.
Considering the stress that tobacco and alcohol put on our healthcare system and ultimately society at large, why do you consider these personal choices?

Agree to disagree. I'm free to fuck myself up and I'm free to pay the price. I don't think "society at large" has any right or responsibility.




LMNO

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Navkat, I think one aspect that needs to be looked at is the reality of the current political situation.

It's one thing to hold onto an ideology, but if that ideology starts with a complete change of game rules, a grand total of fuck all will get done.

So, you have to look at the current state and manner of government, and start there.  

For example, coal and energy companies are dumping tons of shit into the air, water, and ground.  Global warming arguments aside, there are visible and horrible consequences to that.  So, you might say it would be a good idea for them to cut it out.  But how?  

The conservative position seems to say that cleaner plants would make more money in the long run, and killing the consumer is counter-productive, so eventually the invisible hand will make the companies fall in line.  This isn't happening.

The progressive position seems to say that we should regulate the living fuck out of the companies, forcing them to reduce their emissions or face fines or closure.  This would force many smaller energy companies out of business, causing prices to skyrocket... Not to mention that the lobbyists would never allow it.

So, the solution that sucks the least for everyone seems to be cap-and-trade.  The conservatives are pissed because the companies regulated and it will cost them money if they go over the limit, and the progressives are pissed because it means the more powerful companies will just buy more credits and keep fucking up the environment.  But at least there is a limit, and at least there are economic incentives to cut down emissions.

Government is fucked up in general; but human greed is just as fucked up.  In today's society, it seems like the two are in some sort of death match... But we can't let either one win.

Cain

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But letting greed win will lead to a self-regulating, fair and awesome political system, with free blowjobs more freedom.  Why do you hate free blowjobs more freedom, LMNO?

LMNO

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I want term limits on all public offices.
Quote
If the voters must re-elect the public officers, why set term limits?

Because it takes the whole "Carreer Politician" off the table entirely and puts the focus back on "Public Servant." Our representatives will stop looking at their service as "trying to hold onto my career/position as long as possible by any means necessary and start seeing this as a limited gig with a purpose of accomplishing true goals for the people who voted them in.

Or, conversely, it sets up a system where inexperienced politicians are mostly ineffectual, and spend their short carreers grabbing as much as they can before they're booted out.  It takes new members of congress at least two terms before they can get anything done.  

And what if the Will of the People actually want the guy sticking around for a long time?  Case in point, Massachussets (and the country) has done pretty well with Ted Kennedy.  Sure, it ain't perfect, and he's fucked some things up, but he's also enormously influential in the Senate.

LMNO

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But letting greed win will lead to a self-regulating, fair and awesome political system, with free blowjobs more freedom.  Why do you hate free blowjobs more freedom, LMNO?


Because the free blowjobs freedom isn't for me!


LMNO
-greedy.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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I tend to suspect that maybe latching onto a political party label because you just don't feel comfortable operating/thinking independently without clinging to a cadre of theoretically like-minded politicos may be even more contradictory to Discordianism.

Call me crazy.

Anyway, I'm a Republican by technicality, and I despise Libertarians (with a big L) because they're fucking idiots, for all the reasons detailed by Cain. I hate stupid people, and 99.9% of all Libertarians amaze me with their ability to have a functioning nervous system in the face of their lack of a brain.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”