Addition 1 to unlimited Morn fail thread.

[MornTheOrator]

3) You may say that you aware of yourself but prove it. And note that saying 'I experience myself' is not a prove, you have to prove that you also actually do, you have to find a way to let me look into your mind. Otherwise all I know is that you claim to experience thoughts and feelings but not that you actually do experience them. A machine evolved over millions of years shall most likely also claim these things regardless of if it truly feels them because claiming those things is a handy asset to stay alive. Important factor in evolution.

Welcome to a new world of weird! Looks to me like you're starting to get the picture - there is no such thing as proof. The search for truth, absolute or otherwise, is pointless when the searchers very existence can be called into question. There is no proof, there is no science, it's all in your head and there isn't even a head

AH, the nihilist on the dreaded sliding scale of epistemological scepticism.

I'm not a Platonist, I have no reason to believe that there is a 'real' world and certainly not that if it's there it's ascertainable to humans. I'm not a strong nihilist either but a weak nihilist. In shirt I am not confident to say 'No truth exist, there is no objective reality.' but simply 'I have not seen a prove yet of an objective reality and perhaps it's there and even provable, but I doubt it.' the point about strong nihilism is that it sort of goes against nihilism.

[P3nT4gR4m]

First off I don't like to pigeonhole myself with terms like "nihilist" strong or otherwise. For one thing, try as I might, I don't fit. My point is not that I believe or disbelieve in the existence of things. Simply that I don't really feel compelled to care if it's real or not. That's not to say I necessarily take everything at face value, like the naive realist in your cartoon, rather I take or leave things at face value, imagined value or any other subjective value, based on the whim of the moment. People who obsess over philosophical questions like how to prove existence seem to me to be missing the fun. Just because I can't prove empirically that the fun I had really happened matters not one iota - prove me wrong if you feel the need, I'll simply call my interrogators very existence into question and laugh away like the happy idiot I am.

BTW, you're a DK alt, right?

[MornTheOrator]

First off I don't like to pigeonhole myself with terms like "nihilist" strong or otherwise. For one thing, try as I might, I don't fit. My point is not that I believe or disbelieve in the existence of things. Simply that I don't really feel compelled to care if it's real or not. That's not to say I necessarily take everything at face value, like the naive realist in your cartoon, rather I take or leave things at face value, imagined value or any other subjective value, based on the whim of the moment. People who obsess over philosophical questions like how to prove existence seem to me to be missing the fun. Just because I can't prove empirically that the fun I had really happened matters not one iota - prove me wrong if you feel the need, I'll simply call my interrogators very existence into question and laugh away like the happy idiot I am.

One of the reasons I don't believe in free will is because I, as many people, have failed to control my thoughts. If I see some thing it starts a cascade reaction of thought and implication that arrives at certain ideas and I can't just switch it off. Probably even less than most people I feel I'm 'in control', I would call myself an impartial observer of my own life and thoughts and actions rather than being in control of them.

So no, I cannot 'decide' if I want to think about such things.

BTW, you're a DK alt, right?

I have no idea what a DK alt is but explain it to me in all detail and I shall decide if I am.

[Precious Moments Zalgo]

I'm not a Platonist, I have no reason to believe that there is a 'real' world and certainly not that if it's there it's ascertainable to humans. I'm not a strong nihilist either but a weak nihilist. In shirt I am not confident to say 'No truth exist, there is no objective reality.' but simply 'I have not seen a prove yet of an objective reality and perhaps it's there and even provable, but I doubt it.' the point about strong nihilism is that it sort of goes against nihilism.

What would I be on your scale?  I looked at your cartoon and I agree, more or less, with each character's statement.  I strongly suspect that an objective reality exists, even though I strongly doubt that it's existence can be proven, and even if it could I don't believe it's possible to experience really real reality in all its glory.  I don't know whether I'm self-aware, but it's really easy for me to convince myself that I am, merely by the fact that something has convinced something of something, and that something is what I call "me".  I don't know whether objective reality exists, but I find I'm much better off when I behave as if my actions have objective consequences.

[Cramulus]

I'm with you, I don't really believe in free will. And if you're aware of your thought cascades, and where they're going, can't you hijack them? A little bit of metacognition goes a loonnnng way...



I do love it when the newbies come in swinging. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

These tiny circuits transport and store chemical information in our brains, the emergent property of which is referred to as mind or consciousness or (if you're really superstitious) the immortal soul.

Can you prove to me that you are  'sentient' or 'conscious' in that you have any awareness of what you are doing and are not just a sophisticated automaton evolved to simulate 'emotions' to sustain yourself. Can you prove to me that any human is including myself?

No.  Now go back to your mental fapping, while the automatons talk.  Thanks.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm with you, I don't really believe in free will. And if you're aware of your thought cascades, and where they're going, can't you hijack them? A little bit of metacognition goes a loonnnng way...



I do love it when the newbies come in swinging. 

I love it when they come in and teach us allllllllllllll about it.

Of course, he's going to be laughed out of town like all the others of his type, but we can enjoy it while it lasts.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Cheers eerhm, I'm a webdesigner /  musician /  comic artist / programmer / sci-fi writer / illustrator / graphics artist, you know ̄what you become after you dropped out of studying mathematical physics—which I did.

So, you failed at math, and decided to try to do everything else all at once, none of which seem to be actual, you know, paying jobs.

How fascinating.

[Cramulus]

perhaps I am mistaken, but I was under the impression there was an actual discussion going on. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hey, new people.  I've been "encouraged" to be nice to you noobs.  So hi, and I hope you DON'T get syphilis.

I hope I don't too.

You kids, these days...ya just don't know how to rock n roll.   

TGRR,
Has syphilis worms the size of those things in Tremors.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

perhaps I am mistaken, but I was under the impression there was an actual discussion going on.  

9 posts and he's telling other people what they believe, moving the goal posts, and talking down at everyone.

Yeah, something's going on here.  Also, check his intro in the intro thread and tell me it doesn't set alarm bells off.

But you know what, Cram?  I totally forgot that I wasn't going to do this anymore, so I'll just back on out and watch the humor from a distance.

Carry on.

[MornTheOrator]

I'm not a Platonist, I have no reason to believe that there is a 'real' world and certainly not that if it's there it's ascertainable to humans. I'm not a strong nihilist either but a weak nihilist. In shirt I am not confident to say 'No truth exist, there is no objective reality.' but simply 'I have not seen a prove yet of an objective reality and perhaps it's there and even provable, but I doubt it.' the point about strong nihilism is that it sort of goes against nihilism.

What would I be on your scale?  I looked at your cartoon and I agree, more or less, with each character's statement.  I strongly suspect that an objective reality exists, even though I strongly doubt that it's existence can be proven, and even if it could I don't believe it's possible to experience really real reality in all its glory.  I don't know whether I'm self-aware, but it's really easy for me to convince myself that I am, merely by the fact that something has convinced something of something, and that something is what I call "me".  I don't know whether objective reality exists, but I find I'm much better off when I behave as if my actions have objective consequences.

Platonism, no doubt about that.

Roughly put:
Naïve realism: An objective reality exists, and we can see it. (To use Russell's argument against naïve realism: "Naïve realism, if true, leads to physics, physics leads to naïve realism being false, therefore, naïve realism, if true, it is false, therefore, it is false.")
Platonic realism: An objective reality exists, but we cannot see or ascertain it.
Antirealism: There is no such as an objective reality and/or the quæstion's not relevant and ill-defined.

I'm with you, I don't really believe in free will. And if you're aware of your thought cascades, and where they're going, can't you hijack them? A little bit of metacognition goes a loonnnng way...



I do love it when the newbies come in swinging. 

The quæstion is if you can prove if you're aware of them? Maybe you are, maybe you aren't, but certainly you can't prove it.

Also, Cramulus: My nine post-recollection is strong enough for me to say that I haven't stated my gender yet. Or are you so misandrist that you cannot believe I am female?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The quæstion

The wut?

Also, Cramulus: My nine post-recollection is strong enough for me to say that I haven't stated my gender yet. Or are you so misandrist that you cannot believe I am female?

WTF?  Where did he say anything about that, since when does a misandrist hate females, and would you please define "human" so we know what the fuck you're asking everyone to prove?

[MornTheOrator]

Cheers eerhm, I'm a webdesigner /  musician /  comic artist / programmer / sci-fi writer / illustrator / graphics artist, you know ̄what you become after you dropped out of studying mathematical physics—which I did.

So, you failed at math, and decided to try to do everything else all at once, none of which seem to be actual, you know, paying jobs.

How fascinating.

Well, I did those things before I did maths actually and just went rolled back to it more or less afterwards. Obviously you don't take me seriously but that's cool because I don't take you or myself seriously so if you don't take yourself seriously we're quite symmetric here.

[Cramulus]

The quæstion is if you can prove if you're aware of them? Maybe you are, maybe you aren't, but certainly you can't prove it.

well I experience awareness. Whether or not that has external validity is irrelevant to me. If I get hit in the head with a barstool, it still hurts whether or not there's such a thing as a barstool or a head.

Also, Cramulus: My nine post-recollection is strong enough for me to say that I haven't stated my gender yet. Or are you so misandrist that you cannot believe I am female?

 

what?