Author Topic: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism  (Read 14458 times)

Cain

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2009, 02:13:09 pm »
Bump! Cos I don't want Cain going to sleep on this.

Have a mull over these ...

P3nT's 3 tenets of "Perfect Nihilism"

1) Gravity is absolute, morality is not.

2) God may not be dead but he does need to stand in line like the rest of us.

3) The ultimate meaning of existence is for each of us to decide for ourselves.

Morality doesn't come from outside reality.

There is only here and now.

As reality changes, so does morality.  New situations require new judgements and new methods of thinking.

We should centre our judgements around ourselves ("this is bad for me" does not necessarily mean this is bad for all).  Beyond Good and Evil does not equal beyond good and bad for each subject.
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2009, 02:16:14 pm »
Everything is in the eye of the beholder  8)

*edit* Yeah I know - it can look like solipsism from one angle.  :cry:
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"And National Geographic got interested because National Geographic has the theory that the last century, discovery was basically finding things, and in this century, discovery is basically making things."-- Stewart Brand

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2009, 07:32:58 pm »
Read it; don't have anything to add to this discussion, but awesome work nonetheless.

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2009, 12:43:16 am »
Excellent work Cain.

Your piece reminds me of the best parts of the recent Adbusters issue with the theme of "Pop Nihilism: Advertising Eats Itself".

Food for thought:

Quote

But creativity is not a force that you can use to schlep superfluous objects to uninterested consumers – that requires repetition, persuasion and the power of mass media. True creativity is inherently destructive, and truly creative individuals always, without exception, seek to destroy the mediums they work within.

With the influx of creatives into the industry, agencies have opened their doors to an intellectual insurgency, every innovation pushing the medium closer to the edge. This is the essence of Joseph Schumpeter’s “creative destruction” save one critical difference: rather than supplanting outdated companies, the creative destructionists of advertising will force their medium into oblivion. This is the birth of advertising’s Dada era.


https://www.adbusters.org/magazine/84/pop_nihilism_adverting_eats_itself.html
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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2009, 12:16:46 pm »
Great piece, Cain. I too had a strong urge to link this and post this everywhere while reading it. Are you still working on polishing it up? Otherwise I will X-post it to my blog, which is as inactive as it is new and spankin'.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 12:48:29 am »
Do you mind if I print this out? I'd like to be able to read it off the comp, and maybe leave it someplace where it can wrangle a few more receptive minds.
Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial increases in corpse production.

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2009, 03:01:01 pm »
Hey Cain, I showed this to an old friend, and she really identifies with your piece.  

I just thought you'd like to know that this makes sense to non-Discordians, as well.
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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2009, 05:42:37 pm »
Hey Cain, I showed this to an old friend, and she really identifies with your piece.  

I just thought you'd like to know that this makes sense to non-Discordians, as well.

Accordions?

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"And National Geographic got interested because National Geographic has the theory that the last century, discovery was basically finding things, and in this century, discovery is basically making things."-- Stewart Brand

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2009, 11:15:37 pm »
A parable of perfect Nihilism?

A man hath two sons. To one son he giveth love and care and food and clothing and trinkets and baubles to satisfy his every desire and to the other he doth cast out into the world, naked and starving with nought but cuts and bruises and harsh words which still echoeth in his ears to remind him of his family and home.

The first son groweth up to be a tyant, a murderer and a pederast. He taketh from the mouths of babes to maketh himself fat and lazy in his iniquity.

The second son groweth up to be a good man, wise and humble in nature and in deeds. The second son doth save many a life by his own toil and sacrifice and yet expecteth he nothing in return.

And verily I say unto you - tis easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for judgement to be passed down upon either of these two tossers by any authority other than that of their fellow man.

The grand scheme of things sayeth - "Fuck 'em both, in measure equal"
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"And National Geographic got interested because National Geographic has the theory that the last century, discovery was basically finding things, and in this century, discovery is basically making things."-- Stewart Brand

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2009, 11:57:01 pm »
I am unfortunately not erudite enough to really get into the nuts and bolts of this, despite my best efforts. I DO however feel the same sense of excitement that P3nT seems to feel. This could be good. REAL good.

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2009, 03:08:33 am »
A parable of perfect Nihilism?

A man hath two sons. To one son he giveth love and care and food and clothing and trinkets and baubles to satisfy his every desire and to the other he doth cast out into the world, naked and starving with nought but cuts and bruises and harsh words which still echoeth in his ears to remind him of his family and home.

The first son groweth up to be a tyant, a murderer and a pederast. He taketh from the mouths of babes to maketh himself fat and lazy in his iniquity.

The second son groweth up to be a good man, wise and humble in nature and in deeds. The second son doth save many a life by his own toil and sacrifice and yet expecteth he nothing in return.

And verily I say unto you - you will have an easier time passing a needle through the eye of a camel than finding an objective judgement for either - both shall die, judged only by themselves and others.

The grand scheme of things sayeth - "Fuck 'em both, in measure equal"

I dunno.  I don't especially like this parable, but how could you miss that part?
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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2009, 04:26:35 am »
A parable of perfect Nihilism?

A man hath two sons. To one son he giveth love and care and food and clothing and trinkets and baubles to satisfy his every desire and to the other he doth cast out into the world, naked and starving with nought but cuts and bruises and harsh words which still echoeth in his ears to remind him of his family and home.

The first son groweth up to be a tyant, a murderer and a pederast. He taketh from the mouths of babes to maketh himself fat and lazy in his iniquity.

The second son groweth up to be a good man, wise and humble in nature and in deeds. The second son doth save many a life by his own toil and sacrifice and yet expecteth he nothing in return.

And verily I say unto you - tis easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for judgement to be passed down upon either of these two tossers by any authority other than that of their fellow man.

The grand scheme of things sayeth - "Fuck 'em both, in measure equal"
No way. Well, not about Nihilism, but the concept of subjective good/bad. The concept of good and bad being absolutely subjective is intuitively incorrect for a reason. It's the same reason we still use the words - bad is by definition that that causes pain or anxiety. The reason that this is mixed up in definition, I could only guess, is from an echo to rationalize horrible religious acts -- which comes out to also make intuitive sense. Why religion? Because religion is the only thing that tells us that everyone is not equal, therefore an action from one group could be more good than the other, or conversely 'less sinful' than the other. Also, the justification of personified Gods in theistic religions.

Anywho...
Rules to use to measure 'good' and 'bad' of a subject:
 •Since we have no way of testing the existence of philosophical zombies (or a zombie percentage), we should assume all perception as equally valuable.
 •Deeming an action better or worse based on a 'what if' hypothesis is arbitrary since we cannot change the past.
 •Good and bad have diminishing value, depending on the original amount of pleasure/happiness or pain/anxiety experienced. Ex: Mortally wounding someone twice is not as bad as mortally wounding two people once.
 •A judgment that considers the indirect affects of a subject is incorrect, because it is arbitrary of the action itself.
 •Unintended affect and action defaults to the cause of nature, therefore a subject should not be judged on action unintended.

By compiling the average 'good' or 'bad' resulting from a subject on a group, and following these rules, a scale can be theoretically made. Aka an 'objective judgment scale'. The final number would then be modified according to the personal preferences of the affected subjects.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 04:34:45 am by typ3 »

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2009, 09:24:30 am »
No way. Well, not about Nihilism, but the concept of subjective good/bad. The concept of good and bad being absolutely subjective is intuitively incorrect for a reason.

Fuck your retarded intuition, because that in itself is subjective, making all your point fall apart.

It's the same reason we still use the words - bad is by definition that that causes pain or anxiety.

Within my personal value system, things that cause anxiety can be both good and bad. When you have a first date or an interview and you are really anxious, it means that it is important. Of course if you have a stalker that wants to kill you, well, thats a negative causer of anxiety. Wandering thru life avoiding any source of anxiety will not get you any accomplishment. (This point im gonna extend on when i have the time, anxiety/strife/discord and its positive values)

The reason that this is mixed up in definition, I could only guess, is from an echo to rationalize horrible religious acts -- which comes out to also make intuitive sense. Why religion? Because religion is the only thing that tells us that everyone is not equal, therefore an action from one group could be more good than the other, or conversely 'less sinful' than the other. Also, the justification of personified Gods in theistic religions.

Capitalism and modernist tendencies also say this in different ways. Group identification/discrimination has dozens/thousands of manifestations.

Anywho...
Rules to use to measure 'good' and 'bad' of a subject:
 •Since we have no way of testing the existence of philosophical zombies (or a zombie percentage), we should assume all perception as equally valuable.

Arent you the humanist?

•Deeming an action better or worse based on a 'what if' hypothesis is arbitrary since we cannot change the past.

Ok, so if i shove a broomstick up your butt vigorously is neither good nor bad for no one.

•Good and bad have diminishing value, depending on the original amount of pleasure/happiness or pain/anxiety experienced. Ex: Mortally wounding someone twice is not as bad as mortally wounding two people once.

I dont even know what the hell do you mean.

•A judgment that considers the indirect affects of a subject is incorrect, because it is arbitrary of the action itself.

Are you saying that only intentions matter?

•Unintended affect and action defaults to the cause of nature, therefore a subject should not be judged on action unintended.

So, manslaugther should be taken out of the law books?

By compiling the average 'good' or 'bad' resulting from a subject on a group, and following these rules, a scale can be theoretically made. Aka an 'objective judgment scale'. The final number would then be modified according to the personal preferences of the affected subjects.

Good luck with that. And btw, thats just an ugly regurgitation of what Kant once said.

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2009, 10:04:23 pm »
Damn! This is what I get for trying to reply in a philosophy discussion when I actually don't read philosophy. :x
I didn't even know who Kant was. My ideology was flawed and I decided to be a little silly at the bullet points (it was barely relevant to the discussion at hand). Obviously such a scale would never work in practical application. Looking back now, I couldn't possibly argue for what I was being serious on.

Anyways, mindset assimilated. I hope I can prove myself not to be a drooling fool next time I post. Please don't let this trash derail the thread. (goes back to lurking)

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Re: Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2009, 10:28:21 pm »
Damn! This is what I get for trying to reply in a philosophy discussion when I actually don't read philosophy. :x
I didn't even know who Kant was. My ideology was flawed and I decided to be a little silly at the bullet points (it was barely relevant to the discussion at hand). Obviously such a scale would never work in practical application. Looking back now, I couldn't possibly argue for what I was being serious on.

Anyways, mindset assimilated. I hope I can prove myself not to be a drooling fool next time I post. Please don't let this trash derail the thread. (goes back to lurking)

Don't beat yourself up over it. A position that's never been challenged isn't really a position I'd like to be in. Nearest thing we have to scientific rigor in philosophy.
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"And National Geographic got interested because National Geographic has the theory that the last century, discovery was basically finding things, and in this century, discovery is basically making things."-- Stewart Brand