Author Topic: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder  (Read 9374 times)

AFK

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2010, 02:26:39 pm »
Well, my particular definition of "Chaos" would recognize that a mathematical definition of "Chaos" is just another human attempt to understand that which it can never completely understand.  It's a nice attempt, but most likely doesn't really come close to "Actuality". 
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Cramulus

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 02:27:50 pm »
When I say Chaos I am talking about Chaos as used in Greek Mythology.

Edith Hamilton:

“First there was chaos, the vast immeasurable abyss, outrageous as a sea, dark, wasteful, and wild... From the formless confusion of Chaos, brooded over by unbroken darkness came three children; into this shapeless nothing they were thrown. Erebus, which is the unfathomable depth where death dwells and his two sisters, Nyx, or night, and Gaea, the earth. In the whole universe there was nothing else; all was black, empty, silent, endless."

Chaos is the initial state of things, how they exist pre-thought. What they look like when they're off-stage. Chaos is the state of the unknowable future.

Eris is our patroness because deep down I want to live in a balanced world, and there's too much Order right now. Eris wants us to build up the order until there's a breaking point, called Aftermath, and the cycle returns to the season of Chaos.

To me, Eris is the Goddess of Chaos because she reveals that order and disorder are both illusion. She prefers Disorder right now, again, because we live in Orderville. But deep down she wants balance - hence the symbol of the Sacred Chao.

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 02:34:14 pm »
Well, my particular definition of "Chaos" would recognize that a mathematical definition of "Chaos" is just another human attempt to understand that which it can never completely understand.  It's a nice attempt, but most likely doesn't really come close to "Actuality". 

Oh good.

We have yet another genius redefining mathematical concepts to fit in with their cosmology.

That's never been done before.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


AFK

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 02:35:41 pm »
Hey, I don't know who it is that pissed in your Wheaties this morning, but maybe it would be helpful if you turned down the snark dial a little bit, to keep the discussion positive and constructive. 
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Cramulus

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 02:46:12 pm »
Can I hear this mathematic definition of Chaos? Because I am skeptical that it covers capital-E Everything.

Triple Zero

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2010, 02:54:54 pm »
Ok, here's something to argue about: Our definition of "Chaos" adheres to neither the social nor the mathematic definition.

So why the heck are we calling it "Chaos", anyway?  Eris is a STRIFE goddess, not an "All-Encompassing-Summation of Universe" goddess.

You have a good point about Eris being the Goddess of Strife, and of Discord, not of Chaos.

However, you are dead fucking wrong about our definition of "Chaos" not adhering to the mathematic definition.

Can I hear this mathematic definition of Chaos? Because I am skeptical that it covers capital-E Everything.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Chaos.html

seems mathematics actually limits itself to just barely defining "chaotic" as applying to a (complex, dynamic and/or adaptive) system, rather than defining the word "Chaos" itself.

from the text on that page I do get a sort of feeling of peculiar mixture of order and disorder yeah.

you must have seen the regions of order and disorder in your travels through the world of fractals as well, Cram?
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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2010, 02:58:40 pm »
Hey, I don't know who it is that pissed in your Wheaties this morning, but maybe it would be helpful if you turned down the snark dial a little bit, to keep the discussion positive and constructive. 

No. Everyone. And look it up.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2010, 03:11:44 pm »
However, you are dead fucking wrong about our definition of "Chaos" not adhering to the mathematic definition.

Without trying to sound too much like an asshole know-it-all, it would really help if you explained this a bit more, so I could understand where you're coming from.

The following is a standard definition of Chaos Theory:

Quote
Chaos theory is an area of inquiry in mathematics, physics, and philosophy studying the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions... Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.

This indicates that, while the outcomes cannot be pre-determined, in the end everything is following precisely ordered rules.

That is to say, it appears to me that Mathematical Chaos is Total Underlying Order, but with more overlying variables than can be accounted for.  This, to me, does not sound like "Order + Disorder", it sounds like "Order that cannot be predicted".

But then again, I'm 60% certain I have misunderstood your point because, you know, you didn't actually make one.


Triple Zero

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2010, 03:35:46 pm »
The following is a standard definition of Chaos Theory:

Quote
Chaos theory is an area of inquiry in mathematics, physics, and philosophy studying the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions... Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.

This indicates that, while the outcomes cannot be pre-determined, in the end everything is following precisely ordered rules.

That is to say, it appears to me that Mathematical Chaos is Total Underlying Order, but with more overlying variables than can be accounted for.  This, to me, does not sound like "Order + Disorder", it sounds like "Order that cannot be predicted".

Umm hwo much unpredictability do you need before it gets disorder?

Because mathematical systems span the entire range.

That's the thing about chaotic systems.

Theoretically you'd THINK you should be able to deterministically calculate the outcome. Except that in chaotic systems, the practical limits hit the theoretical limits pretty quickly.

Say you know the initial conditions, could you calculate the outcome?

First, let me point out that, as you know, if you let the system run enough, an arbitrarily small error in the initial conditions can create an entirely different result. [mix that fact with Quantum and you get some weird stuff btw]

So let's get started. You cannot analytically solve a chaotic system. You need to do it numerically. Since you know the initial conditions exactly, they have no rounding error. But then you calculate a few steps into the system and you find you need more and more precision to avoid rounding error in the intermediate results. And you cannot have any rounding error, because the tiniest error will make your result worthless after just a few more steps.

Well, now that you got that, it can be shown that there exist chaotic systems, and not even terribly complicated ones at that, that require an increase in precision so fast that, get this, at some point you're gonna require more atoms for the computer that is supposed to calculate that than we currently know exist in the universe.

And that is where the practical limit joins the theoretical limit and we can stop worrying about determinism. Wheeeee.

edit:added some clarifications in green
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 07:22:53 pm by Triple Zero »
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2010, 04:02:59 pm »
Wait, who is using Discordianism to explain the whole Everything?!?!?!

 :lulz:

As far as I can tell, the Principia Discordia, in its discussion about order/disorder, I think its probably talking mostly about the subjective experience of humans, not particularly ALL EVERYTHING.

Quote
  I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free.

Here Eris calls herself Chaos and likens it to the stuff that artists and scientists build from. This causes us to consider artists and scientists in an equal light and I find this interesting... from Chaos/Eris scientists 'build' rhythms (not find, but build) just as artists do.

Quote
Speak of Me as Discord, to show contrast to the pentagon. Tell constricted mankind that there are no rules, unless they choose to invent rules. Keep close the words of Syadasti: 'TIS AN ILL WIND THAT BLOWS NO MINDS. And remember that there is no tyranny in the State of Confusion.

Here Eris lines herself up ans says 'Speak of me AS discord to contrast with Order', she isn't claiming to BE Discord, rather she is taking on the mantle of Discord to contrast Order.

In the story of Greyface:
Quote
"Look at all the order around you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest men to believe that reality was a straightjacket affair and not the happy romance as men had known it.

It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular time, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the disorder around them and conclude just the opposite.

Here Order and Disorder are directly opposed... but we can conclude from the whole parable that NEITHER is True. That is, Order and Disorder were subjectively selected by the observers.

Cosmology:
Quote
Before the beginning was the Nonexistent Chao, balanced in Oblivion by the Perfect Counterpushpull of the Hodge and the Podge. Whereupon, by an Act of Happenstance, the Hodge began gradually to overpower the Podge -- and the Primal Chaos thereby came to be.

And then there's the specific discussion on Page 50:

Quote
The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper that is the level of distinction making.

With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about- reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper that is the level of concept.

Apparent Order and Apparent Disorder, in this model, are Entirely man made... Chaos is a 'deeper level' than Order/Disorder, but nowhere does it state that Chaos is THE deepest level... just a deeper level than the perception of Order and Disorder.

To further express this:

Quote
The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

The original Starbucks Pebble parable does a fantastic job of illustrating this.

Finally, we can take the apocryphal inspired comment by Lord Omar, Our Bull Goose of the Discordian Society:

Quote
And so it is that we, as men, do not exist until we do; and then it is that we play with our world of existent things, and order and disorder them, and so it shall be that Non-existence shall take us back from Existence, and that nameless Spirituality shall return to Void, like a tired child home from a very wild circus.

Order and Disorder again appear to be entirely subjective labels applied by the individual.

In my personal view, I think that it's OK to say Chaos = 'reality' and Order/Disorder = How we interpret 'reality'... But, I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're discussing anything relevant to "Really Real Everything".

To discuss "Really Real Everything" you need dogmatic belief.  :fnord:
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Cramulus

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2010, 04:15:24 pm »
Wait, who is using Discordianism to explain the whole Everything?!?!?!
...
In my personal view, I think that it's OK to say Chaos = 'reality' and Order/Disorder = How we interpret 'reality'... But, I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're discussing anything relevant to "Really Real Everything".

To discuss "Really Real Everything" you need dogmatic belief.  :fnord:

I don't think anybody said Chaos was the really real everything. Chaos is the word used (by me?) to describe the universe behind our perception of it. What else is there?

Chao Te Ching chapter 25
Code: [Select]
There is Something that exists,
beyond the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
It is all things, and unknowable in full.
We only see small parts of It,
but are convinced what we see is the entire Universe.

For lack of a better name, I call It "Chaos".
At dinner parties, I claim It is everything Possible and Impossible.
When asked why not call It "god",
I point out that their head is too fucking small.

Because we create the Illusions in which we live,
we are more creative than Chaos.
Because we believe in the Illusions we create,
our heads are too fucking small.
In this way, we reflect our creations.

So that passage about how both scientists and artists tap into chaos? I think that's saying that both of them make order or disorder from the unknown. They bring something from nonexistence into existence. Their trip could be creative, destructive, ordered, or disordered. Both scientists and artists are tapping into the same source.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2010, 04:37:26 pm »
Wait, who is using Discordianism to explain the whole Everything?!?!?!
...
In my personal view, I think that it's OK to say Chaos = 'reality' and Order/Disorder = How we interpret 'reality'... But, I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're discussing anything relevant to "Really Real Everything".

To discuss "Really Real Everything" you need dogmatic belief.  :fnord:

I don't think anybody said Chaos was the really real everything. Chaos is the word used (by me?) to describe the universe behind our perception of it. What else is there?

I don't know Man, I didn't do it. ;-)

Quote
So that passage about how both scientists and artists tap into chaos? I think that's saying that both of them make order or disorder from the unknown. They bring something from nonexistence into existence. Their trip could be creative, destructive, ordered, or disordered. Both scientists and artists are tapping into the same source.

I agree... I just don't know if that thing they're tapping into is the Really real, or a level of abstraction above the 'really real' and below the 'Order/Disorder' grids.

Otherwise, I think we're in agreement.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2010, 05:39:47 pm »
So let's get started. You cannot analytically solve a chaotic system. You need to do it numerically. Since you know the initial conditions exactly, they have no rounding error. But then you calculate a few steps into the system and you find you need more and more precision to avoid rounding error. And you cannot have any rounding error, because the tiniest error will make your result worthless.

Well, now that you got that, it can be shown that there exist chaotic systems, and not even terribly complicated ones at that, that require an increase in precision so fast that, get this, at some point you're gonna require more atoms for the computer that is supposed to calculate that than we currently know exist in the universe.

And that is where the practical limit joins the theoretical limit and we can stop worrying about determinism. Wheeeee.

WOAH

I totally forgot what we were talking about and had a mathgasm. :fap:

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 06:30:11 pm »
When I say Chaos I am talking about Chaos as used in Greek Mythology.

Edith Hamilton:

“First there was chaos, the vast immeasurable abyss, outrageous as a sea, dark, wasteful, and wild... From the formless confusion of Chaos, brooded over by unbroken darkness came three children; into this shapeless nothing they were thrown. Erebus, which is the unfathomable depth where death dwells and his two sisters, Nyx, or night, and Gaea, the earth. In the whole universe there was nothing else; all was black, empty, silent, endless."

Chaos is the initial state of things, how they exist pre-thought. What they look like when they're off-stage. Chaos is the state of the unknowable future.

Eris is our patroness because deep down I want to live in a balanced world, and there's too much Order right now. Eris wants us to build up the order until there's a breaking point, called Aftermath, and the cycle returns to the season of Chaos.

To me, Eris is the Goddess of Chaos because she reveals that order and disorder are both illusion. She prefers Disorder right now, again, because we live in Orderville. But deep down she wants balance - hence the symbol of the Sacred Chao.

This is an interesting idea Cram... let me see if I understand you correctly. 

I am getting this:  Eris is the goddess of, and personification of STRIFE.  Strife is dependent on the circumstances on which it occurs in, so in a mostly ordered society, such as we have now, "strife" exhibits its behaviour as disorder.  But, in a society which was primarily disorderly, she would exhibit "strife" as order.

Am I reading you right?
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Cramulus

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Re: About Chaos, and the illusions of Order and Disorder
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 06:33:57 pm »
yeah - personally I think that if we were living in total fist pumping anarchy, the Golden Apple Corps would be building bridges and governments.