Author Topic: Narrativity  (Read 2773 times)

BabylonHoruv

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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 07:08:25 pm »
I think that the Illuminatus trilogy serves as a mythological narrative for Discordianism in a lot of ways.  Much more so than the Principia in that it actually is a narrative, and a reasonably coherent one.  Of course it draws attention to that fact, which means it can't be enshrined the way that the Bible has been because it patently states that it is not true (Principia does this as well though and I think that is, for me, a core tenent of Discordianism, "don't believe everything you read, including this")

I think that we generate Discordian "folk tales" all the time, with the collaborative rants and whatnot, the Discordian dreamtime definitely exists, (the faerie world where myths take place, dreamtime is just a relatively easy term for it, it's exists for any religion, even though Christianity tries very hard to merge it with the real world)  I can even see some of the map of it, There is the lost highway, The City, some of the other places we have explored.  Looking back there are archetypes as well.  It is not hard to place The Good Reverend Roger (to pick on one of the more visible and vocal members of this forum) as someone with quite a bit of Hagbard Celine in him, for example. 
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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 07:19:04 pm »
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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2010, 07:33:20 pm »
The Good Reverend Roger as someone with quite a bit of Hagbard Celine in him, for example. 
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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2010, 08:25:55 pm »
For me Discordianism is a method or example of how to remove the narrative.
We form our stories, our memories, and fit the world into them. I think the PD tried to show us that no matter how we do this we still make fools of ourselves.

That's a hard enough lesson for most people. However, I think the further point to be made, shown and modeled, dissected really, here is that the act of the narrative itself is flawed. In any fashion, but most especially when considered to be a measure of Truth.

You're right that narrative is limited, and it is right to break narratives down, sometimes.  Can't argue with Payne, though:

Narrative is an essential part of being human - it's a necessary short cut to reasoning, so you don't have to sit and think shit out each and every time you need to take immediate action.

There's just too much to process otherwise.

Seriously, Payne, that was a great post.  A mittens to you, sir.  :mittens:


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It's a wonderful ability, but I'm not sure it's a good ability, or at least not an ability that is consistently used beneficially.  Because once somebody constructs an identity, they start thinking that that's who they Really Are, and they forget that it's an explanation of themselves.  A couple things can go wrong at this point.  They might start attempting to live in accordance with an identity that isn't quite right (if you believe you have a disability, you'll soon start acting as if you have it), or they might steadfastly refuse to ignore new evidence that contradicts their view of themselves, which denies them an opportunity to recognize and compensate for faults.  If they mistake their identity for their self (whatever that is) then they'll be unable to distinguish between threats to the identity and threats to themselves
Naturally.  This is along the lines of what I meant by being "driven by cliche"--sometimes a story outlives its purpose.  Our conditioning doesn't just vanish when the relevant circumstances are gone.


Quote from: BabylonHoruv
Discordian dreamtime definitely exists
Agreed.  That is what culture is--a collective dream/narrative.


Here's an attempt at a rewrite/condensation.
I hope i have made it a bit more like a coherent story.

I have to ask...Is this irony intentional?   :wink:

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2010, 09:58:51 pm »
This is great stuff... Holy crap!

However, I have a question. Do narratives create moral thought... or does moral thought direct the narrative? The example of Katrina struck me as a particularly useful example. Even the Discordian 'narrative' (as a generic term here) seems influenced by the Absurdist Moral position held by many of its creators.

So are morals the "grid" that we frame our narratives over, are narratives the grid that direct our moral views, or is this some kind of weird feedback loop?

(I'm thinking maybe the third one)
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BabylonHoruv

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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2010, 10:09:20 pm »
This is great stuff... Holy crap!

However, I have a question. Do narratives create moral thought... or does moral thought direct the narrative? The example of Katrina struck me as a particularly useful example. Even the Discordian 'narrative' (as a generic term here) seems influenced by the Absurdist Moral position held by many of its creators.

So are morals the "grid" that we frame our narratives over, are narratives the grid that direct our moral views, or is this some kind of weird feedback loop?

(I'm thinking maybe the third one)

Definitely both.

Narratives are shaped by the moral framework of the narrator.  And they shape the thoughts of the listener.

I'd say they can also shape the thoughts of the narrator, if they are complex enough.
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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 10:38:53 pm »
This is great stuff... Holy crap!

However, I have a question. Do narratives create moral thought... or does moral thought direct the narrative? The example of Katrina struck me as a particularly useful example. Even the Discordian 'narrative' (as a generic term here) seems influenced by the Absurdist Moral position held by many of its creators.

So are morals the "grid" that we frame our narratives over, are narratives the grid that direct our moral views, or is this some kind of weird feedback loop?

(I'm thinking maybe the third one)

I'd say that the most simple narratives (that is a stick, sticks are for stabbing food(not a real example i think but it seems unlikely i am capable of imaging a real example)) are the base on wich further narratives  and morals are built.

so.
basis: narrative
followed by: weird feedback loop
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Narrativity
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2010, 10:45:50 pm »
Hrmmm, interesting idea Regret.

I was thinking about how our 'beliefs' or 'moral views' affect us from a Law of Fives perspective and that seems in line with creating these narratives. So we have some belief, events unfold and we interpret them into a Narrative that fits our worldview... but that made me ask 'where did the morals come from' and I like your answer as though small narratives that aren't particularly tied to a moral view might build up (and probably interact with the social programs of the individuals or groups) forming larger narratives which form moral views/reality tunnels which become the basis for strong narratives and so on...

Dynamic processes FTW
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