Author Topic: Altruistic robots produced through evolution  (Read 7742 times)

Captain Utopia

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2010, 10:52:51 pm »
So you're saying that zoological altruism can't occur in an evolving system?

Ragret

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2010, 11:13:32 pm »
i'm saying it can't evolve.
but it is not my specialty, and if someone can expertly explain it to me i'd be happy.

i kinda feel like im about to get my arse kicked with science and/or fact here, so go ahead and have fun.
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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2010, 12:12:29 am »
i'm saying it can't evolve.
but it is not my specialty, and if someone can expertly explain it to me i'd be happy.

i kinda feel like im about to get my arse kicked with science and/or fact here, so go ahead and have fun.

I'd be happy too, if you explain which meaning of "altruism" you're talking about.
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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2010, 01:29:48 am »
The altruism that can be explained is not the true altruism. (Likewise, the magic that can be explained is not the true magic, and unicorns are only definable in terms of pixie dust and giant planet-eating love muffins from out of space.)

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2010, 02:46:09 pm »
Altruism is helping others without direct or indirect profit to yourself.
It costs energy/time/something and gives you nothing back.
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Jasper

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2010, 06:12:53 pm »
Altruism is helping others without direct or indirect profit to yourself.
It costs energy/time/something and gives you nothing back.

If it gives nothing back (not even a modicum of pleasure), then what you're describing is tantamount to  martyrdom.

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2010, 06:37:36 pm »
Martyrdom isn't altruistic either. After all, every martyr knows that all martyrs are honored posthumously.

Captain Utopia

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2010, 06:56:31 pm »
I give up.  Wake me when this thread has any relevance to cool robots and/or altruistic behaviour in non-sentient creatures.

Jasper

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2010, 06:59:39 pm »
Who knew altruism would be so controversial on PDcom? 

You're right though FP, the point of this thread is cool robots.

Captain Utopia

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2010, 07:16:02 pm »
It's not a subject without controversy, and neither am I an expert in any field related to this, though I can't help but think it bears more relevance to the analysis of robotic behaviour patterns than talk of unicorns or martyrs or how sentient minds consider or imagine past and future events in order to perform an action which may or may not subsequently be endlessly philosophized as whether it leans more towards selfishness or altruism.

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #100 on: February 08, 2010, 07:29:04 pm »
Yes.

So, are these robots zoologically altruistic?

Captain Utopia

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2010, 09:11:54 pm »
The actual paper clarifies a few things - the large tokens (all individuals in group get 1 point) which require two bots to push have a higher cost than pushing a small token (only that individual gets 1 point).  This does move the cost/benefit ratio closer towards altruism.

The key to all of these simulations is that they make certain abstractions, and it's crucial to identify those and at least make some estimation as to how these abstractions effect the fidelity of the simulation.  For example - the simulation used 100 groups, which contained 10 individuals each, and the individuals were able to identify group-members with regards how similar their genomes were and use that input to drive behaviours based upon kin.  Given that the genomes were themselves software abstractions, the question is whether fudging that recognition to something like a simple value of "how closely related to me is this bot over there", fundamentally affects the outcome?  In this case I don't think it does - animals appear to be able to recognise and differentiate between members of their families and community, and strangers - so it isn't a magic or unrealistic faculty to turn into an abstraction.  Recognition is also an interesting area to simulate, but it doesn't look to be directly relevant to the experiment.

The criticism Kai raised is more interesting - the robots are being selected not on some real-world robot-wars style fitness criteria, but on an abstracted "how many points can it score".  Is it legitimate to use points to abstract a more complex activity which has a direct impact on fitness?  E.g. a sentry meerkat who barks out a warning to the group -- individual fitness would be better served in the short term by using the time to escape, rather than warn others.

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #102 on: February 08, 2010, 10:09:54 pm »
in my daydream ideas about evolutionary programming, if I want individuals to be able to distinguish genetically related others from those that are further genetically removed, I always feel that giving them a special sensory input for "genetic similarity of target organism" is kind of like cheating.

My idea would be to give them a set of LFO's in a bunch of genetically determined frequencies. The sensory input would not determine genetic similarity, but the correlation of an organism's set of LFO's with the target organism. This also gives non-related strains the option of "faking" the similarity, kind of like mimicry, and it gives organisms the option of genetically controlling their similarity [as they don't have to change their LFO frequencies if they evolve a couple of generations away from the main species, but they might find it beneficial do to so, or maybe the main species finds this]

It doesn't have to be LFO's either, it can just be a sequence of numbers, but in my idea the oscillators can also be used to control certain bodily functions, so they are not just flags.
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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2010, 10:16:02 pm »
Noisy robot mating rituals FTW

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Re: Altruistic robots produced through evolution
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2012, 03:31:15 pm »
This was a news article from 2010...

Why the heck haven't we heard from anything similar since?