Author Topic: The Eris Look  (Read 8041 times)

Hoopla

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2010, 02:13:59 pm »
Eris is linked to the Graiai[~Graiae] through her aspect as Enyo and Bellona (Pephredo, Enyo, and Dino, the 3 hags that helped Perseus kill Medusa, who oddly enough was a member of the Gorgons triplicate Stheno, Eurayle, and Medusa, which were "sisters" to the Graiai,).

I believe you are mixing up two different Enyos here.  But thanks for everything else.
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Hoopla

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2010, 02:15:49 pm »
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for.  Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.

Depends on how you view strife.

You don't consider the Original Snub a prank?  Sure, a tough-as-nails bitter amusement prank, but certainly a prank.
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Hoopla

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2010, 02:18:40 pm »
I personally was thinking that Eris was a bad choice for what they seemed to be going for.  Much more of a war goddess, the embodiment of hate not chaos, and hardly a prankster.

She was that too.  Thats the good and bad chaos thing.

Quote from: Hesiod
   So, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature.
    For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due.
    But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night (Nyx), and the son of Cronus who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with his neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel.

I just don't see it.  Not that it's a big deal, it's just my personal interpretation, and I understand that there were multiple aspects to the Greek goddess Strife.  But I see her as humorless and wrathful-- even in her positive aspects-- particularly in her connection with Ares and her being almost indistinguishable from Enyo.

I've always thought Ananke (Necessity) would have been a better fit in terms of her classical domain, but I suppose her name doesn't have the same ring to it.

Isn't there a bit in the PD about how the Greeks got her all wrong?

Also, many Discordians think that Eris is a crazy, vindictive bitch who will fuck with you just to see you suffer, should you be so unfortunate as to catch her attention. She's not the merry prankster with the absurd sense of humor; we are, for being so silly as to worship Our Lady of Confusion.

Good point, though I personally see a lot of humour in the Original Snub.  Vindictive?  Certainly.  Humourless?  Not so certain.
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Cramulus

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2010, 03:17:42 pm »
My personal interpretation:

this goes back to the discussion about how Eris represents strife, and strife means different things in different eras.

The Romans and Greeks were trying to build the first bureaucracies. They were trying to overcome their animal nature and live in cities with money and law and and stuff like that. To them, Eris represented the forces of Disorder, the things which would tear down the walls and drag them back to living like savages.

But now we got the Order virus in a bad way. So Our Lady shed her skin and took a different form. A goofier one. One that is better suited to dismantling what we're doing now.


To phrase it in a less "divine intervention" way -- In the old days, the best threat to the natural order was BARBARIANS. Those savages that sacked rome. But we're not going to destroy the MachineTM by acting like savages anymore. Maybe we can jam it up by not taking it seriously. Now, humor and satire are the best tool against the system. Failing that, it's ignoring the system completely and starting your own shit. Maybe start a kingdom in your living room.

The nature of strife remains unchanged, but her form seems to change with the times.


Hoopla

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2010, 03:38:24 pm »
My personal interpretation:

this goes back to the discussion about how Eris represents strife, and strife means different things in different eras.

The Romans and Greeks were trying to build the first bureaucracies. They were trying to overcome their animal nature and live in cities with money and law and and stuff like that. To them, Eris represented the forces of Disorder, the things which would tear down the walls and drag them back to living like savages.

But now we got the Order virus in a bad way. So Our Lady shed her skin and took a different form. A goofier one. One that is better suited to dismantling what we're doing now.


To phrase it in a less "divine intervention" way -- In the old days, the best threat to the natural order was BARBARIANS. Those savages that sacked rome. But we're not going to destroy the MachineTM by acting like savages anymore. Maybe we can jam it up by not taking it seriously. Now, humor and satire are the best tool against the system. Failing that, it's ignoring the system completely and starting your own shit. Maybe start a kingdom in your living room.

The nature of strife remains unchanged, but her form seems to change with the times.



Cram, I think I love you.
“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes" — Walt Whitman

Elder Iptuous

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2010, 03:41:14 pm »
very good interpretation, Cram!  :D
although, i still think barbarians at the gate are a powerful force for disorder/systems disruption in our modern society.
i think Eris needs both a whoopie cushion in one hand, and a hand grenade in the other...

NotPublished

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2010, 08:58:21 pm »
Why does Eris have to be a warrior?

I would of thought Eris is always causing trouble, even without meaning to. She is always cool calmed and collected, not showing much emotion - but on in inside she is just really bored and enjoys making everyone going wtf, cause its what makes her feel alive anymore. She won't laugh out loud, but doesn't mean she doesn't have a sense of humour.

But, what Cram said is PERFECT!
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N E T

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2010, 09:01:18 pm »
Cram nailed it.


i think Eris needs both a whoopie cushion in one hand, and a hand grenade in the other...


I also like this.
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Cain

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2010, 09:12:47 pm »
We tend to a historical interpretation here.

I actually did a lot of the research on original ancient Greek attitudes to Eris a few years ago, when I had to take several modules in classical history and literature.  And Eris was, historically, seen as a war goddess, among other things. 

Eris, like Hermes, seems to have undergone several interpretations based on Greek cultural mores of the time.  For example, as a Goddess of Competition (in her "good" aspect, according to Hesiod) would've actually been seen by most 7th and 6th century Greeks as bad, since they considered commerce as a dishonourable livelihood.  The exception to this was Attica, which thrived on trade and where there is some evidence of Eris worship.  Changes in how Hermes was viewed (changing from a pest-like King of Thieves to a god of communication, wits and commerce) happened in a similar place at a similar time.

Equally, the family to which Eris belonged were not exactly held in highest regard by the Greeks, either.  Remember, Ares wasn't just a god of warfare, he was a god of bloody slaughter, a brooding and violent killer, quite unlike Athena, the goddess of rational, wise and prudent warfare.  Eris' mythological association with him probably did not help improve her reputation outside of Attica, and the more popular Cult of Hermes quite likely vyed for worshippers that might have gone to Eris in places where she wasn't viewed so negatively.  Also remember after the Peloponnesian Wars, the Athenians were not the most popular Greeks in all of Greece, and the Thirty Tyrants stamped down heavily on deviant approaches to worship, as their execution of Socrates seems to indicate.  An Erisian cult would've been considered politically dangerous, if it was still active at that time (the proof we have of ancient Eris worship in the Greek mainland ONLY comes from the sixth century).

In Rome, she would've fared little better.  The Roman Republic sneered quite openly at Greek culture, seeing it as inferior, indulgent and childish.  A Dionysus based cult caused significant political turmoil at one point during the Republic's history, as I recall as well, which didn't improve this attitude to Greek culture.  Things changed as the Republic moved towards Empire, Eris was likely equated with Bellona to nullify the more disruptive aspects of her nature and Romanize her.

Cain

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2010, 09:13:45 pm »
http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Eris.html

Required historical reading.

Hoopla

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2010, 09:18:03 pm »
You have again proved yourself invaluable Cain, thank you.
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Telarus

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2010, 10:10:56 pm »
Eris is linked to the Graiai[~Graiae] through her aspect as Enyo and Bellona (Pephredo, Enyo, and Dino, the 3 hags that helped Perseus kill Medusa, who oddly enough was a member of the Gorgons triplicate Stheno, Eurayle, and Medusa, which were "sisters" to the Graiai,).

I believe you are mixing up two different Enyos here.  But thanks for everything else.

While the 2 Enyos have a distinct narrative (one the battle-queen, waster of cities, one the grey haired Stygian witch who "falls victim" to Perseus) most mythologists agree that they represent the same goddess, mainly through evidence of swan-cult worship.


http://www.ghostwoods.com/2009/12/the-stygian-witches-903/
Quote
The witches were named Deino, Pemphredo and Enyo. Their names give some indication of their perceived nature – respectively, they mean Dread, Alarm, and Horror. They lived in a dark cavern near the entrance to Tartarus, close to the island where the Gorgons were banished. Enyo in particular lived up to her name; she often appears drenched in blood, and was said to lay waste to entire cities. There are also suggestions that she may have been related to Ares, god of war, either as his mother, sister or daughter, although that is more of a comment on her nature than her genealogy. All three were said to be extremely wise in knowledge, monster-lore and witchcraft.

In the best-known myth about the Stygian Witches, King Polydectes sent the hero Perseus on a mission to get Medusa’s head – even in death, the gorgon would still have the power to turn people who saw her to stone. Perseus was aware that he would be aided in his task by a group of nymphs, but didn’t know where to find them, or where to look for Medusa. He did know how to find the Graeae however, so he went to visit them, and as they were passing their eye between them, he snatched it from them and demanded that they tell him everything he needed to know, or he wouldn’t give it back. The desperate Graeae obeyed and answered all his questions. Despite their assistance, Perseus broke his promise to return the eye, and later threw it into lake Triton.

The Graeae are thought to have been the focus of a group of swan cults across ancient Greece. Strange as it may sound to us now, swans are not just symbolic of beauty, but they were also thought to represent cunning, prophecies (particularly of death), access to other realms, and a range of other, darker things. The Stygian Witches were probably worshipped as the avatars of that set of symbolism – particularly being born grey-haired and with just one eye, and yet also described as swan-like beauties. The missing eyes would have implied sight into other realms, and the grey hair was a symbol of their wisdom and magic power.

http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Graiai.html
The Graiai were usually depicted as old crones. However according to Aeschylus they were Seiren-shaped monsters with the head and arms of old women and the bodies of swans.

The swan imagery has followed 'Bellona' well into the 19th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellona_%28goddess%29

 

It's supposed that the Roman's aquired Bellona/Duallona through the Etruscans, which were a sea-power at their height and traded with Attica:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3zzu5EjrCrsC&lpg=PA144&ots=neZGB6jrE3&dq=etruscan%20attica%20trade&pg=PA144#v=onepage&q=etruscan%20attica%20trade&f=false

It's also pretty well nailed down that Enyo/Bellona inducted Dionysus into 'the mysteries' (D then took the title of "Enyalius", which was at the same time a name for an old son of Enyo-Ma, and a title of Ares), so I'm not surprised that his cult started some serious turmoil.


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Hoopla

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2010, 10:18:11 pm »
Hmmmm.... interesting.
“Soon all of us will have special names” — Professor Brian O’Blivion

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Cain

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2010, 10:20:57 pm »
No problem Hoops, I'm just glad it was even readable.

Telarus, I did wonder if there was an Etruscan/Attican link, but I hadn't researched it, so I didn't want to speculate too freely.  Also, swans are ringing a bell for some reason...but I can't remember why.  I'm pretty sure its not because of Taleb and Black Swans (although that it an amusing case of synchonicity), but I'm not sure what it is.  If I wasn't so tired, I might be able to remember.

Telarus

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Re: The Eris Look
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2010, 10:34:52 pm »
You mentioned a swan link in the orig post about Attica, leeme check...

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14098.0



Swans surrounding the central image on the plate from Delos.


Oh, and it seems you brought up the Graiai while Hugh was plaing hoity-toity-know-it-all:

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSC
That psychotic crone is actually an aspect of the Wiccan Goddess, unless it is Hekate, unless it is Athena in menopause, unless it is....well take your pick. I tend to think that while Eris may be into the all sweet and nice tickles for those upon whom that approach may work, She is also the deity who provoked Yahweh to be so evil in the Old Testament. It is good to keep this perspective. (The same sweet wind that cools you on a hot day, is the wind that can blow a massive storm which destroys your entire livelihood.)

BAM! In comes Greek geek knowledge.  Enyo/Eris was considered one of the  Graiai, or the the three Gray Sisters, who were apparently beautiful. They were described as "fair-faced and swan-like" but they's had gray hair from the day they were born and they shared one eye and one tooth, but they lost even that when Perseus stole their eye and later threw it in a lake.

Also ""[Depicted on the chest of Cypselus at Olympia] Aias is fighting a duel with Hektor [in the Trojan War], according to the challenge, and between the pair stands Eris in the form of a most repulsive woman. Another figure of Eris is in the sanctuary of Ephesian Artemis; Kalliphon of Samos included it in his picture of the battle at the ships of the Greeks." -Pausanias, Guide to Greece
5.19.1

However, I tend to think she was probably in good shape as she was hauling dead bodies around the battlefield of Troy and she was said (in Dionysiaca) to look like Rheia, the loverattle goddess.



Rather like the above, only probably with a nose and alot of armour, covered in blood.
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