Author Topic: Picking Cain's Brains  (Read 17924 times)

LMNO

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2016, 04:00:53 pm »
This is going to work out so well.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2016, 08:00:15 pm »
Cain, what do you think of the idea that a lot of people are posting on the idiotbooks that the Malheur occupiers should be considered terrorists and treated as such? While I can see their point to some degree, regarding  the unbalanced response of the government compared to (thus far hypothetical situations) in which the occupiers are black or Muslim, they are occupying a completely uninhabited area, which I would tend to think makes them not terrorists. Or at least, very bad at it.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


LMNO

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2016, 08:07:46 pm »
First off, I'm not Cain.  Secondly, this post isn't about whether they should be called terrorists.  Ignore the following if you want to, I understand.

So, what I'm mainly seeing is that people are trying to underline a contrast between how we're treating the White Militants, and the various liberal protest movements (Black Lives Matter, etc).  But for me, they're drawing the arrow the wrong way.  What I see is them saying, "why aren't you shooting the hell out of the whites with guns, since that's what you do to unarmed black protesters?"

It seems to me the question should be framed as, "why didn't you leave the unarmed black protesters alone, like you are doing to the white militants?"  There's still hypocrisy being pointed out, but it sets the level of morality as peaceful law enforcement responses to protest, instead of violent ones.

I dunno.  Just what's been on my FB feed of late.


Anyway, that didn't answer your question.  Just wanted to comment.

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2016, 08:26:20 pm »
First off, I'm not Cain.  Secondly, this post isn't about whether they should be called terrorists.  Ignore the following if you want to, I understand.

So, what I'm mainly seeing is that people are trying to underline a contrast between how we're treating the White Militants, and the various liberal protest movements (Black Lives Matter, etc).  But for me, they're drawing the arrow the wrong way.  What I see is them saying, "why aren't you shooting the hell out of the whites with guns, since that's what you do to unarmed black protesters?"

It seems to me the question should be framed as, "why didn't you leave the unarmed black protesters alone, like you are doing to the white militants?"  There's still hypocrisy being pointed out, but it sets the level of morality as peaceful law enforcement responses to protest, instead of violent ones.

I dunno.  Just what's been on my FB feed of late.


Anyway, that didn't answer your question.  Just wanted to comment.

I see their reasoning, but the problem is that the only events that I can think of in recent US history involving nonwhite protesters are the Native American occupations of Alcatraz and Wounded Knee, which were both handled very similarly to how this is going down. Then there are the many instances of white cults or militants holing up in some property, which were handled similarly or (as in the case of Ruby Ridge) more aggressively. By comparing the occupation of the forest service building to riots in Baltimore and Ferguson, in my opinion people are doing a disservice to the argument, because those situations are not comparable.

In fact, a lot about this situation is not comparable to most tense protest/occupation situations involving minorities, simply because this situation is about land rights -- white people feeling entitled to Federal property, which is an attitude minorities in the US typically just don't have. The closest thing to it is Native Americans protesting being robbed of their land, which also, while typically handled poorly, is usually (in the 20th century and beyond) not handled by declaring them terrorists and firebombing the occupation.

Saying "WHAT IF people of color were doing this?" is not a convincing argument, simply because it's a little like saying "WHAT IF people of color were responsible for the economic collapse?" It assumes a social structure in which people of color could reasonably conclude that  it is their god-given right to access the resources of Federal land without paying a lease just because they want to and their Daddy did it, which isn't the universe we actually live in. And if it was, the Feds would probably be handling it exactly as they are now, because in that universe, people of color have that level of privilege.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Cain

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2016, 08:49:05 pm »
Cain, what do you think of the idea that a lot of people are posting on the idiotbooks that the Malheur occupiers should be considered terrorists and treated as such? While I can see their point to some degree, regarding  the unbalanced response of the government compared to (thus far hypothetical situations) in which the occupiers are black or Muslim, they are occupying a completely uninhabited area, which I would tend to think makes them not terrorists. Or at least, very bad at it.

It's a bit of a gray area, to be sure.

I would say it is, but I have a fairly expansive view of terrorism, and I wouldn't consider it an especially egregious case of terrorism, like the classic "plant a bomb in a cafe" sense.

Instead, I'd say this is more on a level with what eco-terrorists do.  As I'm sure you're aware, while eco-terrorists occasionally go into serious terrorism, sabotaging logging sites, assassinating scientists and similar, for the most part they bomb empty buildings to "make a point" and drive up insurance costs.  It is terrorism, but only in a very technical sense

In this case, I'd say the terrorism comes not from the occupation or the protest, but from the statements and the guns.  Protests are fine, occupation is a valid protest tactic.  However, when you throw guns into the mix, alongside comments about "being willing to use them" or words to that effect, it becomes a slightly more serious matter.  There the implication is that if law enforcement were to evict the occupiers, they would respond violently.  In effect, it's holding the property hostage, as a form of provocation, in hope of provoking a law enforcement response which would galvanise the militia movement (or at least that is how it appears - that they brought little in the way of supplies is telling).

I mean, I'd be fine if the American courts wanted to prosecute this as purely a criminal affair - it would in many ways be the best political response because it denies the legitimacy of any of the political greivances of the militia groups involved.  But under US law, if they wanted to pursue terrorism charges, I think they would have reasonable grounds to do so under existing domestic terrorism definitions (which would hinge on the "armed" and "coercing policy" aspects).  I obviously don't think that would be the smart move, and it would add credibility to the militia movement propaganda that Obama is a dictator, using anti-terrorism legislation to lock up loyal American citizens (which ironically is kinda what they're protesting about).

Academically, it would fit some definitions, but definitely on the lower end of the scale of political violence.  If wars and genocide are the top end of that scale, this would be right down on the bottom of the scale, the point after which things would turn into "arsey protests" and similar.

Some of the liberal responses have been a bit hyperbolic though, I definitely agree there.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2016, 09:02:35 pm »
Thanks, Cain! I definitely agree that the purpose of the protest seems to be to goad the government into escalating the aggression so that the occupiers feel they will be justified in fighting back, and also so that more of these fringe militants will come to their aid. In that respect, I think the government's response of watching and waiting is exactly the correct one.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2016, 09:05:28 pm »
Yeah, the Feds are playing it smart for a change.

I definitely think the provocation aspect is part of what makes me feel this is more terrorism.  It's very "People's Will"...carry out a small scale, illegal operation to provoke a massive state response to justify a campaign of violence.  They were hoping for Ruby Ridge 2.0...instead, they got "medieval warfare: seigecraft edition".

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2016, 10:09:56 pm »
Yeah, the Feds are playing it smart for a change.

I definitely think the provocation aspect is part of what makes me feel this is more terrorism.  It's very "People's Will"...carry out a small scale, illegal operation to provoke a massive state response to justify a campaign of violence.  They were hoping for Ruby Ridge 2.0...instead, they got "medieval warfare: seigecraft edition".

 :lulz: My first thought when they took over the building is "Well, this'll be easy to wait out". There's nothing out there. Harney County has a total population of under 7500 people, and it's some of the least hospitable territory in Oregon. Plus, it's January, and the high desert is cold as fuck right now. I'm sure the building has heat... if it hasn't been shut down for the off-season.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #143 on: January 05, 2016, 10:18:51 pm »
I mean, they decided to go here, in winter, with no snacks:



I'm not even sure how it's made international news.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Cain

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #144 on: January 05, 2016, 10:24:38 pm »
Patriots burn warm with the feeling of FREEDOM.

Freeky

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2016, 08:48:19 am »
Cain, why does the American government feel the need to control the entire god damn world? 


If this is a dumb question, my bad.
If someone does the Fine, youre right, Im clearly a terrible person, Im Satan, Im the worst person alive, I should just die thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Cain

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #146 on: January 09, 2016, 06:50:23 pm »
Are we talking about any specific time period, or more generally?

Because it kinda varies post-WWI/WWII/ColdWar/current, in the specifics at least.  And while the generalised version ties all that together...it's pretty boring.

Freeky

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #147 on: January 14, 2016, 10:34:41 pm »
Currently really.
If someone does the Fine, youre right, Im clearly a terrible person, Im Satan, Im the worst person alive, I should just die thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Cain

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #148 on: January 14, 2016, 10:42:16 pm »
Answer forthcoming tomorrow.

Freeky

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Re: Picking Cain's Brains
« Reply #149 on: January 16, 2016, 09:41:42 pm »
Yessss. :)
If someone does the Fine, youre right, Im clearly a terrible person, Im Satan, Im the worst person alive, I should just die thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in