Author Topic: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.  (Read 5256 times)

Phox

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2010, 05:51:21 pm »
Oh, I know who Mad Jack is. He wore a sword and took out Nazis with a long bow, right? Patton was arguably a modern day military genius. My point is, if there were more people like Gandhi, there would be less chance of Nazis in the first place. Unfortunately though, you are right in saying that the Nazis do exist, and thanks to the fact that human nature tends towards making people like ol' George and Jack, there won't be a shortage of them any time soon.

No, more Gandhis mean more Nazis, unfortunately.  More Pattons mean less Nazis.

While I understand your logic, I disagree with it. But either way, I think we are in agreement about the current state of affairs.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying, but okay.

I think what you are saying is something of a "Fight fire with fire"  thing. To counteract the Nazis there needs to be Pattons. If there are more Gandhis than Pattons, the violence of the Nazis while overcome the peace of the Gandhis, but if there are more Pattons than Gandhis, the "good guys" however those are defined, have a fighting chance? I don't think I articulated that very well.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2010, 05:55:48 pm »
Oh, I know who Mad Jack is. He wore a sword and took out Nazis with a long bow, right? Patton was arguably a modern day military genius. My point is, if there were more people like Gandhi, there would be less chance of Nazis in the first place. Unfortunately though, you are right in saying that the Nazis do exist, and thanks to the fact that human nature tends towards making people like ol' George and Jack, there won't be a shortage of them any time soon.

No, more Gandhis mean more Nazis, unfortunately.  More Pattons mean less Nazis.

While I understand your logic, I disagree with it. But either way, I think we are in agreement about the current state of affairs.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying, but okay.

I think what you are saying is something of a "Fight fire with fire"  thing. To counteract the Nazis there needs to be Pattons. If there are more Gandhis than Pattons, the violence of the Nazis while overcome the peace of the Gandhis, but if there are more Pattons than Gandhis, the "good guys" however those are defined, have a fighting chance? I don't think I articulated that very well.

You get Nazis by allowing them to exist.

You get rid of them by killing them.
"Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future. You are interested in the unknown... the mysterious. The unexplainable. That is why you are here. And now, for the first time, we are bringing to you, the full story of what happened on that fateful day. We are bringing you all the evidence, based only on the secret testimony, of the miserable souls, who survived this terrifying ordeal. The incidents, the places. My friend, we cannot keep this a secret any longer. Let us punish the guilty. Let us reward the innocent. My friend, can your heart stand the shocking facts of grave robbers from outer space?"

Payne

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2010, 05:58:47 pm »
My point is, if there were more people like Gandhi, there would be less chance of Nazis in the first place.

 :x

Patently false.

Look at what even the illusion of a Better Way has resulted in in the U.S. over the last 2-3 years.

But anyway...

J Churchill and Patton were men of their time. They were mad (in both senses of the word) and they were effective. Oh, and it helped that they had very clear objectives to achieve victory. I have no gret liking for either of them, but you do have to admire them on some level at least.

Gandhi, however, didn't have a clear objective for victory really. He had a number of nebulous ideals, sure, and he achieved some of them (kinda). But India isn't "Free" - never has been, and whatever "Freedom" it has is not bloodless.

We don't need more Gandhis. We need Superior Gandhis. Better, Stronger, Faster, Smarter, Madder and even more Pissed Off.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2010, 05:59:40 pm »
My point is, if there were more people like Gandhi, there would be less chance of Nazis in the first place.

 :x

Patently false.

Look at what even the illusion of a Better Way has resulted in in the U.S. over the last 2-3 years.

But anyway...

J Churchill and Patton were men of their time. They were mad (in both senses of the word) and they were effective. Oh, and it helped that they had very clear objectives to achieve victory. I have no gret liking for either of them, but you do have to admire them on some level at least.

Gandhi, however, didn't have a clear objective for victory really. He had a number of nebulous ideals, sure, and he achieved some of them (kinda). But India isn't "Free" - never has been, and whatever "Freedom" it has is not bloodless.

We don't need more Gandhis. We need Superior Gandhis. Better, Stronger, Faster, Smarter, Madder and even more Pissed Off.

Ju Jitsu Gandhi FTW.
"Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future. You are interested in the unknown... the mysterious. The unexplainable. That is why you are here. And now, for the first time, we are bringing to you, the full story of what happened on that fateful day. We are bringing you all the evidence, based only on the secret testimony, of the miserable souls, who survived this terrifying ordeal. The incidents, the places. My friend, we cannot keep this a secret any longer. Let us punish the guilty. Let us reward the innocent. My friend, can your heart stand the shocking facts of grave robbers from outer space?"

Payne

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2010, 06:01:35 pm »
Ju Jitsu Gandhi FTW.

Shit man, you know it. Fightin' Jesus' sidekick, gettin' upside the head of the usurers in The Temple.

Phox

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2010, 06:05:34 pm »
Oh, I know who Mad Jack is. He wore a sword and took out Nazis with a long bow, right? Patton was arguably a modern day military genius. My point is, if there were more people like Gandhi, there would be less chance of Nazis in the first place. Unfortunately though, you are right in saying that the Nazis do exist, and thanks to the fact that human nature tends towards making people like ol' George and Jack, there won't be a shortage of them any time soon.

No, more Gandhis mean more Nazis, unfortunately.  More Pattons mean less Nazis.

While I understand your logic, I disagree with it. But either way, I think we are in agreement about the current state of affairs.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying, but okay.

I think what you are saying is something of a "Fight fire with fire"  thing. To counteract the Nazis there needs to be Pattons. If there are more Gandhis than Pattons, the violence of the Nazis while overcome the peace of the Gandhis, but if there are more Pattons than Gandhis, the "good guys" however those are defined, have a fighting chance? I don't think I articulated that very well.

You get Nazis by allowing them to exist.

You get rid of them by killing them.

Ah, that's what I thought you were trying to say. I disagree with the logic there, or rather I think that Nazis are less likely to exist if people are more tolerant and peaceful in general. Not that they won't exist at all, but the Pattons and Mad Jacks will exist as well to fight them. The disconnect is that I think that Nazis are twisted Pattons. So, I believe we are viewing the world through two different lenses Dok.
My point is, if there were more people like Gandhi, there would be less chance of Nazis in the first place.

 :x

Patently false.

Look at what even the illusion of a Better Way has resulted in in the U.S. over the last 2-3 years.

But anyway...

J Churchill and Patton were men of their time. They were mad (in both senses of the word) and they were effective. Oh, and it helped that they had very clear objectives to achieve victory. I have no gret liking for either of them, but you do have to admire them on some level at least.

Gandhi, however, didn't have a clear objective for victory really. He had a number of nebulous ideals, sure, and he achieved some of them (kinda). But India isn't "Free" - never has been, and whatever "Freedom" it has is not bloodless.

We don't need more Gandhis. We need Superior Gandhis. Better, Stronger, Faster, Smarter, Madder and even more Pissed Off.
:lulz: Gandhi 2?

On a more serious note, I'm not arguing that. Which may be where the misunderstanding of each other is coming from. I am saying that if the general trend in people was to be less violent and more idealistic, like Gandhi, then fewer people would become Nazis. (See above). I'm not saying that's how it is, or that it can become that way. Just wishful thinking and pointless speculation.



Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2010, 06:08:59 pm »
Ah, that's what I thought you were trying to say. I disagree with the logic there, or rather I think that Nazis are less likely to exist if people are more tolerant and peaceful in general.

Like the Weimar Republic, you mean?
"Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future. You are interested in the unknown... the mysterious. The unexplainable. That is why you are here. And now, for the first time, we are bringing to you, the full story of what happened on that fateful day. We are bringing you all the evidence, based only on the secret testimony, of the miserable souls, who survived this terrifying ordeal. The incidents, the places. My friend, we cannot keep this a secret any longer. Let us punish the guilty. Let us reward the innocent. My friend, can your heart stand the shocking facts of grave robbers from outer space?"

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2010, 06:09:32 pm »
Ju Jitsu Gandhi FTW.

Shit man, you know it. Fightin' Jesus' sidekick, gettin' upside the head of the usurers in The Temple.

Hell yeah.  And Elvis.  And "Bob".

It would be like the A team, only more amazing.
"Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future. You are interested in the unknown... the mysterious. The unexplainable. That is why you are here. And now, for the first time, we are bringing to you, the full story of what happened on that fateful day. We are bringing you all the evidence, based only on the secret testimony, of the miserable souls, who survived this terrifying ordeal. The incidents, the places. My friend, we cannot keep this a secret any longer. Let us punish the guilty. Let us reward the innocent. My friend, can your heart stand the shocking facts of grave robbers from outer space?"

Payne

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2010, 06:11:13 pm »
On a more serious note, I'm not arguing that. Which may be where the misunderstanding of each other is coming from. I am saying that if the general trend in people was to be less violent and more idealistic, like Gandhi, then fewer people would become Nazis. (See above). I'm not saying that's how it is, or that it can become that way. Just wishful thinking and pointless speculation.

I'm not saying that's how it is either. What I'm saying is if you populate the world with more men of peace, the Martial Bad Guys become stronger.

There is a time and a place for pacific protesters, as often violence will solve nothing (qv: the civil rights movement and the influence of MLK). But even in you argument there will always be Bad Guys with Guns ("Fewer Nazis", not "No Nazis") In which case you gotta hope you have more psychopaths on your side willing to take 'em down by any means neccessary in the name of whatever ideal it is you are basing your fight against the Nazis on.

Payne

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2010, 06:12:51 pm »
Ju Jitsu Gandhi FTW.

Shit man, you know it. Fightin' Jesus' sidekick, gettin' upside the head of the usurers in The Temple.

Hell yeah.  And Elvis.  And "Bob".

It would be like the A team, only more amazing.

Gonna have to add a Ju-Jitsu Gandhi to that old Apocalypso WOMP now. See if I don't, Herr Doktor.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2010, 06:13:45 pm »
Ju Jitsu Gandhi FTW.

Shit man, you know it. Fightin' Jesus' sidekick, gettin' upside the head of the usurers in The Temple.

Hell yeah.  And Elvis.  And "Bob".

It would be like the A team, only more amazing.

Gonna have to add a Ju-Jitsu Ganchi to that old Apocalypso WOMP now. See if I don't, Herr Doktor.

Woot.  I am also going to start a new WOMP thread, with 2 new cartoons pre-WOMPed and awaiting captioning.
"Greetings, my friend. We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future. You are interested in the unknown... the mysterious. The unexplainable. That is why you are here. And now, for the first time, we are bringing to you, the full story of what happened on that fateful day. We are bringing you all the evidence, based only on the secret testimony, of the miserable souls, who survived this terrifying ordeal. The incidents, the places. My friend, we cannot keep this a secret any longer. Let us punish the guilty. Let us reward the innocent. My friend, can your heart stand the shocking facts of grave robbers from outer space?"

Phox

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2010, 06:16:16 pm »
Ah, that's what I thought you were trying to say. I disagree with the logic there, or rather I think that Nazis are less likely to exist if people are more tolerant and peaceful in general.

Like the Weimar Republic, you mean?

No, I mean from the perspective of human nature. Humans are violent by nature. If they were less violent by nature, I believe there would be fewer Nazis.

On a more serious note, I'm not arguing that. Which may be where the misunderstanding of each other is coming from. I am saying that if the general trend in people was to be less violent and more idealistic, like Gandhi, then fewer people would become Nazis. (See above). I'm not saying that's how it is, or that it can become that way. Just wishful thinking and pointless speculation.

I'm not saying that's how it is either. What I'm saying is if you populate the world with more men of peace, the Martial Bad Guys become stronger.

There is a time and a place for pacific protesters, as often violence will solve nothing (qv: the civil rights movement and the influence of MLK). But even in you argument there will always be Bad Guys with Guns ("Fewer Nazis", not "No Nazis") In which case you gotta hope you have more psychopaths on your side willing to take 'em down by any means neccessary in the name of whatever ideal it is you are basing your fight against the Nazis on.

Yes, but I'm disagreeing with that idea.

There will be fewer (not no) Nazis, but there will still be Good Guys with Guns, too. Just not as many, and a lesser need for them.

Nepos twiddletonis

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2010, 06:20:49 pm »
Just to jump in on the Gandhi thing-
After Hitler came to power and started persecuting Jews, he advised them to passively let Hitler oppress them, and the Nazis would start to respect them for their peaceful perserverance, and an outpouring of sympathy would cause other nations to put political pressure on them. Fight hate with love and all of that. History has clearly shown that that was all bunk as Nazism considers being passive as more reason to exterminate you (since you're too weak to survive) and political pressure something to pay lip service to until you have more tanks and planes so you can blatantly disregard your treaties while cackling maniacally. Just because he was an admirable man doesn't mean he had workable solutions. It would have been more adviseable for the Jews to live up to the subversive stereotype and actively try to dismantle the regime with extreme and unceasing violence.
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Nepos twiddletonis

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2010, 06:23:12 pm »
Further note-
While an individual may be intelligent, a group of people will not be as such and will be able to increase in power by absorbing more people into their group. More Gandhis=More Nazis, because of less resistance to them.

Just my take on it.
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Payne

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 5: Quotes from the Edge.
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2010, 06:29:13 pm »
Ju Jitsu Gandhi FTW.

Shit man, you know it. Fightin' Jesus' sidekick, gettin' upside the head of the usurers in The Temple.

Hell yeah.  And Elvis.  And "Bob".

It would be like the A team, only more amazing.

Gonna have to add a Ju-Jitsu Ganchi to that old Apocalypso WOMP now. See if I don't, Herr Doktor.

Woot.  I am also going to start a new WOMP thread, with 2 new cartoons pre-WOMPed and awaiting captioning.