Author Topic: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.  (Read 5666 times)

Doktor Howl

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Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« on: September 20, 2010, 04:58:48 pm »
We here in Tucson have more than our fair share of Young Conservatives™.  You've seen them.  Their hair is impeccably groomed, they wear kakhis and dockers, and they are very eager to get you to understand that their ways are logical, consistent, and correct.

Of course, they're 169% wrong.  The fact that their theories are logical precludes them from actually being functional, because - on any level that politics is functional at - humans are not logical creatures.  To paraphrase a movie I sort of enjoyed, "A human can be logical.  Humans are as irrational as a shithouse rat."

But we don't just see this in the far right, do we?  No, it pervades all elements of society, though most especially at either end of the political and/or social spectrums.

The standard by which humans should make decisions would be "Given the information that I have processed, X is true."  The standard by which humans actually make decisions is "Things would be really great if X were true, so I am going to behave as if it was, no matter what the universe says."

And this is where the late, frequently misquoted Adam Smith comes in.  When he talked about "the invisible hand of the marketplace", he certainly didn't mean "corporations will do what's right, because they make decisions based on marketplace reality", he meant "If, in the marketplace, decisions are made that do not reflect reality, then reality will come back and kick your arse sideways, sooner or later."

It's a simple concept, right?  So simple that you'd expect at least the Superior Mutants™ to understand it...But we're just as irrational as any other group of monkeys, so you have people jabbering about rational anarchy, how neat things would be if only human nature would suddenly change, etc.

Well, here's a bit of Horrible Truth™ for you:  The universe is what it is, and it's not going to change because you've adopted a philosophy that would really be neat if things were different.  Your wants and beliefs have precisely zero impact on the world, unless they are somehow compatible with the way the world actually works in real life.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't already understand that to get it, and I don't expect those who do understand it - but don't want to - to stop jabbering about their pet ideas and utopian dreams.  I wish they would, because I'd much rather use all this potential for rage at work, but I'm realistic enough to know that most people will read the above and assume it applies to everyone but themselves.

God, how I hate you all.

Okay for now,
Dok
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 06:23:21 pm »
The last bit is the key, too, because with the assumption that this applies to everyone but oneself there's the basis of all political bickering and stupidity.  With libertarians on the rise and the growing popularity of Ayn Rand, I think a lot of people are taking the "there is no subjective reality" idea and using it as justify their own whacked out interpretations of things.  Anyway I'd like to spend more time on this one.  I'm heading in to work and hopefully when I get there I can concentrate on it a bit more.
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the afflicted persons get hold of and consume carrots even in socially quite unacceptable situations.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 06:30:59 pm »
The last bit is the key, too, because with the assumption that this applies to everyone but oneself there's the basis of all political bickering and stupidity.  With libertarians on the rise and the growing popularity of Ayn Rand, I think a lot of people are taking the "there is no subjective reality" idea and using it as justify their own whacked out interpretations of things.  Anyway I'd like to spend more time on this one.  I'm heading in to work and hopefully when I get there I can concentrate on it a bit more.

Precisely.  It's what you don't (won't) see that sells you.

The libertarians scream that their ideas are valid, and then build an entire philosophy and - if they had their way - economic model on it.  Problem is, Rand and her fellow fucktards are operating on a fundamentally flawed premise.  You are not supposed to question that, though (assuming you're in her fan club).  Just like any religion, the moment you accept one incorrect premise, you're lost.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 07:03:29 pm »
Bah, I hate it when you write a really good thing and I can't think of anything to reply to it with.
Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial increases in corpse production.

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 07:53:18 pm »
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.
EoC, you are the bane of my existence.

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the afflicted persons get hold of and consume carrots even in socially quite unacceptable situations.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 08:02:24 pm »
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 08:07:42 pm »
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path.  Those would be reality.  If it came to discussing the train being filthy inside, or just untidy, that would be an interpretation of reality.  What I was saying is that people take the latter, and treat is as though it's the former.
EoC, you are the bane of my existence.

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EoC makes creepy worse.

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the afflicted persons get hold of and consume carrots even in socially quite unacceptable situations.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 08:28:52 pm »
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 08:32:04 pm »
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

 :lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.
EoC, you are the bane of my existence.

EoC doesn't make creepy.

EoC makes creepy worse.

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the afflicted persons get hold of and consume carrots even in socially quite unacceptable situations.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 08:40:56 pm »
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

 :lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.

This thread wasn't illustrating two guys arguing whether a color is blue-green or greenish-blue.

Just saying.

Dok,
Full of hate again, and off to torment the engineer.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 08:56:35 pm »
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

 :lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.

This thread wasn't illustrating two guys arguing whether a color is blue-green or greenish-blue.

Just saying.

Dok,
Full of hate again, and off to torment the engineer.

I'm aware of that.  I must've mistaken this for a discussion topic, wherein someone could explain how they see two of your pieces are linked.  I see you'd prefer an "awesome, Dok" or some mittens instead.

I'll be done in this thread, then.
EoC, you are the bane of my existence.

EoC doesn't make creepy.

EoC makes creepy worse.

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the afflicted persons get hold of and consume carrots even in socially quite unacceptable situations.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 09:06:11 pm »
Nobody is arguing that the train isn't there, or that it can harm you by standing in its path. 

Yes, yes there are.  Every fucking day.  I can stuff you full of examples until you die of stupidity poisoning, if you like.

 :lulz: Point taken.  What I should have said is that I am not arguing that the train isn't there.  Now I'm not sure if your reply to my longer post was commenting on what I was saying or commenting on the mentality of the people I was talking about.

This thread wasn't illustrating two guys arguing whether a color is blue-green or greenish-blue.

Just saying.

Dok,
Full of hate again, and off to torment the engineer.

I'm aware of that.  I must've mistaken this for a discussion topic, wherein someone could explain how they see two of your pieces are linked.  I see you'd prefer an "awesome, Dok" or some mittens instead.

I'll be done in this thread, then.

 :?

Um, okay.  Asking people to talk about apples instead of oranges in a thread about apples is totally the same as asking for adulation.

For fuck's sake.

I quit.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 11:22:34 pm »
Okay, my mad is over.  I'm still done, but I have one thing to add:

If you are on a train track, and a Southbound freight train is coming, it is important to know if the inside of the train is dirty or not.  Likewise, if your politicians are fucking you, it is critical to know if their party colors are blue or red.  These details are of more import than the fact that you're about to me turned into a gooey red paste.

Because that's what the Truth is all about, isn't it?  Paying attention to shit like that?  I mean, that train isn't here YET, and YOUR kid hasn't been fed to the meatgrinder in Afghanistan, so it never pays to look too closely.  The window dressing is all you need.

But don't worry about that.  Everyone knows that I'm not trying to communicate anything of importance.  I'm just a whore for mittens.

You may now return to your best of all possible worlds.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 11:33:22 pm »
A big part is that people think that a Utopia is possible and that if they work hard enough that they'll live to see it happen. They don't get that a perfect society is impossible, because people are inherently imperfect. They can't except that the best you can hope for is to make the world the world abetter place. It has to be perfect, and their personal take on perfect to boot. Never mind that everyone has different ideas on perfect. Only their vision counts. I've always had the impression that Utopians are closet fascists, because they refuse to take into account that what they like might not be what everyone likes. Kind of like the little asshole in preschool who insists that because they like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, everyone has to like it too.

Speaking personally, if the world is a better/more interesting place when I leave it, then I'll call mission accomplished.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 11:34:36 pm »
A big part is that people think that a Utopia is possible and that if they work hard enough that they'll live to see it happen. They don't get that a perfect society is impossible, because people are inherently imperfect. They can't except that the best you can hope for is to make the world the world abetter place. It has to be perfect, and their personal take on perfect to boot. Never mind that everyone has different ideas on perfect. Only their vision counts. I've always had the impression that Utopians are closet fascists, because they refuse to take into account that what they like might not be what everyone likes. Kind of like the little asshole in preschool who insists that because they like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, everyone has to like it too.

Speaking personally, if the world is a better/more interesting place when I leave it, then I'll call mission accomplished.

Utopias are built on bones.  'Nuff said.

"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak