Author Topic: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.  (Read 5641 times)

The Wizard

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 11:35:13 pm »
Quote
Utopias are built on bones.  'Nuff said.

Just ask Stalin.
Insanity we trust.

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2010, 12:30:45 am »
It would be true if, well, utopias were ever built.

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2010, 11:50:39 am »
It's well worth noting our current leaders are as Utopian as anything that came out of the CCP or a certain ideology popular in central Europe in the 1930s.

Just because that's a point some people seem to miss.  It's perfectly fine to criticize other, historical Utopian projects, but the age of that is all over, because the Market is a perfect and efficient God, who shall dispense justice on the unworthy and shower gifts on the deserving.

John Gray, probably the only living British philosopher still worth listening to, keeps trying to point this out.  He would know.  He was a Thatcherite, before he turned to New Labour, before he turned away from all of that.  He says, accurately, since such ideologies do nothing except advocate the same tired old policies, on the basis that the market will always solve problems, never create them, and that everyone everywhere is ultimately the same, and so one-size-fits-all solutions are perfectly reasonable, despite the fact countries like Greece and Paraguay have markedly different economies to that of the UK and USA.

It's a good book and I'm sure I've recommended it before.  I just wanted to mention it because the fact our own leaders are highly ideologically charged and Utopian in their beliefs seems to pass most commentators and journalists by - usually because they are of the same socio-economic class, or went to University where they could be indoctrinated by people drawing paychecks from that class, and so cannot even see how Utopian such views are anymore.  Their own ideological capture is so complete they cannot even critically assess the times in which we live with any degree of accuracy.

Hell, just look at Blair.  He said in his biography that the markets didn't fail in the recent banking crisis, it was entirely the fault of the (toothless) regulars and governments.  And people just nodded their heads like they were hypnotised and said "well that's a very important and interesting point", as if it had any basis in reality (as if Blair's piece of fiction he somehow labelled a biography had any basis in reality).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 11:53:10 am by Cain »
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2010, 11:59:31 am »
Of course, certain cynics are no better.  Henry Kissinger comes to mind.  Kissinger is probably one of the few people in government in the last thirty years who has tried to systematically dismantle his own assumptions about how the world should work and operate on the principles of how the world actually works.

He didn't do very well.  In fact, any assessment of his methods and statements will show how wrong he has been.  For just one example, he suggested that the US government deal with the Communist coup plotters who overthrew Gorbachev, as their power base was secure and they were rational people.  It turns out neither of these facts were true, and Kissinger had egg on his face when Gorbachev was restored and the coup plotters suffered a series of unfortunate accidents before reaching trial, though anyone pointing out said egg on his face probably met with similar kinds of accidents to the coup plotters.

Just a warning, that sometimes a certain kind of cynicism hardens into it's own dogmatic dystopianism which is no better than the Utopianism of those mentioned above.  Adam Curtis, the BBC documentary maker, suggested that both the Neocons and Al-Qaeda are revolutionary dystopians, which may account for their strange mix of hard-headed cynicism yet absolute belief in themselves and their methods.
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2010, 03:56:21 pm »
And this is where the late, frequently misquoted Adam Smith comes in.  When he talked about "the invisible hand of the marketplace", he certainly didn't mean "corporations will do what's right, because they make decisions based on marketplace reality", he meant "If, in the marketplace, decisions are made that do not reflect reality, then reality will come back and kick your arse sideways, sooner or later."

I need to make a huge poster of this and hang it in my cubicle.
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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 05:30:27 pm »
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 05:31:02 pm »
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:

Sorry, the train is silver in color.  That changes everything.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2010, 05:37:02 pm »
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:

Sorry, the train is silver in color.  That changes everything.

Well, you didn't say it was the train to Hogwarts, madgheic alters all realities.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2010, 05:37:46 pm »
You're going to hate me for this, Dok.   :)

Reality is not subjective, and I imagine here it's being used in the same vein as The Truth and other capital letters.  Interpretation of reality, which I think taps into one of your previous series regarding reality filters (or grids to go by Principia Discordia terminology) is highly subjective.  I'm standing at the corner of a busy street with my 70 year old neighbor.  A car goes by and she says "Wow that car is really going fast," whereas I see a car going, yes, faster than other cars, but not necessarily stupidly fast.  That's the subjective interpretation that gets conflated with actual reality.

So you have this anarchist or libertarian who sees their ideas propagated amongts like minded friends or forums, or in their various holy texts.  Otherwise, maybe it's a Discordian, a Tea Partier, any individual who self identifies with a group or movement like we do and like all people do.  Suddenly their insular environment cements their interpretations as fact, and we have just as strong, if not a stronger filter to work through because this one was molded off the idea that we are without filters.

I CHOOSE NOT TO INTERPRET THAT SOUTHBOUND FREIGHT TRAIN, AS I LIKE STANDING ON THE TRACKS.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Barstool, only a lot bigger.  :lulz:

Sorry, the train is silver in color.  That changes everything.

Well, you didn't say it was the train to Hogwarts, madgheic alters all realities.

No, it turns out that your perception of the train's attributes will keep it from mashing you flat.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2010, 05:39:32 pm »
Where's the "TGRR as Freight Train" emote when you really need it?
LMNO
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The Spider Project.

Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2010, 05:41:33 pm »
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2010, 05:45:29 pm »
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2010, 05:48:50 pm »
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:

Thank fucking god. Intellectuals talk funny, they always like to repeat words like I I I I I, well well well well. My perception is they think it makes them look smart.

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2010, 05:52:07 pm »
Mmmmm Hmmmm.

Well, I'm just a simple country boy. We learn at an early age to avoid shit like that. Perception is trumped by pain every time.

Charley, you'll never be an Intellectual™.   :lol:

Thank fucking god. Intellectuals talk funny, they always like to repeat words like I I I I I, well well well well. My perception is they think it makes them look smart.

Well, here's the scoop...They're on one side, hanging out of their precariously leaning ivory tower, spouting perception.  On the other side, you have the know-nothings screeching their perceptions.

Good luck.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Slow Time in Fat City™, part 7: There is no subjective reality.
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2010, 05:53:22 pm »
Where's the "TGRR as Freight Train" emote when you really need it?

It's still there, in the hidden group (why some emotes are hidden are beyond me).  But I'm not the freight train, anymore.  One's coming, though, so you'd best decide what color it is.  It's the only way to be safe.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak