Author Topic: "The Benefits of Madness"  (Read 9295 times)

Luna

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 104584
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2011, 06:33:14 pm »
I'm not about to pick apart my own happiness with tweezers, I can see what you mean.

I'm just trying to decide whether there's anything worth thinking about in this LessWrong post.  


There's probably something worth thinking about in ANY post.  (Okay, maybe not some of the ones GIGGLES puts up, but...)

Yeah, it's occasionally useful to be able to look at things from another angle, but it's hardly a solve-all.  Heck, I can get another perspective with a deck of tarot cards, no insanity required.
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 87077
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2011, 06:33:38 pm »
To be fair, Less Wrong do that a lot as well.  In fact, in their archives, they have entire books worth of posts on cognitive biases and how people form irrational beliefs.

I think they just got bored with that and wanted to branch out a little.

Also, Elizer didn't write that post.  Some boardmember did.  I suspect he's not one of the brightest.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2011, 06:34:05 pm »
I'm not about to pick apart my own happiness with tweezers, I can see what you mean.

I'm just trying to decide whether there's anything worth thinking about in this LessWrong post.  


Oh, sure.  I was just saying that you eat the HELL out of that cheeseburger.  There's no need to pull it apart and catagorize the results.  I wasn't implying that you did, I was just putting forward my own personal viewpoint.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2011, 06:34:42 pm »
I'm not about to pick apart my own happiness with tweezers, I can see what you mean.

I'm just trying to decide whether there's anything worth thinking about in this LessWrong post.  


There's probably something worth thinking about in ANY post.  (Okay, maybe not some of the ones GIGGLES puts up, but...)

Yeah, it's occasionally useful to be able to look at things from another angle, but it's hardly a solve-all.  Heck, I can get another perspective with a deck of tarot cards, no insanity required.

WTF?  I use GIGGLES' posts to divine the future.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105041
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2011, 06:35:48 pm »
To be fair, Less Wrong do that a lot as well.  In fact, in their archives, they have entire books worth of posts on cognitive biases and how people form irrational beliefs.

I think they just got bored with that and wanted to branch out a little.

Also, Elizer didn't write that post.  Some boardmember did.  I suspect he's not one of the brightest.

Usually, Elizier, Yvain, Alicorn and Anna Salamon are worth reading. 

Luna

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 104584
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2011, 06:36:51 pm »
I'm not about to pick apart my own happiness with tweezers, I can see what you mean.

I'm just trying to decide whether there's anything worth thinking about in this LessWrong post.  


There's probably something worth thinking about in ANY post.  (Okay, maybe not some of the ones GIGGLES puts up, but...)

Yeah, it's occasionally useful to be able to look at things from another angle, but it's hardly a solve-all.  Heck, I can get another perspective with a deck of tarot cards, no insanity required.

WTF?  I use GIGGLES' posts to divine the future.

I am not as HolyTM as you are, and can not use those to divine anything, save, occasionally, what I ate last.
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

Jasper

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 67367
  • Pull-Start Enema Wasteland
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2011, 06:39:44 pm »
To be fair, Less Wrong do that a lot as well.  In fact, in their archives, they have entire books worth of posts on cognitive biases and how people form irrational beliefs.

I think they just got bored with that and wanted to branch out a little.

Also, Elizer didn't write that post.  Some boardmember did.  I suspect he's not one of the brightest.

I noticed that after reading the first paragraph.  I was a bit confused for a moment.

The only thing Eliezer bothered saying about it was "write your sequence, see if it works".  

East Coast Hustle

  • Missile Command
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 46213
  • Omnimalevolent Polyfather of Exsanguination in Red
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2011, 07:09:05 pm »
I only feel the need to bring it up because there's been a long-standing convention here of busting peoples' balls for anything resembling "FUCK YOU, MY MOTHER DIED FROM ****", and yet there has also been a long-standing convention here of "YOU CAN'T TAKE MENTAL ILLNESS LIGHTLY, NO NOT AT ALL, DON'T YOU KNOW THERE ARE ACTUAL MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE HERE?" and I don't see how this situation can exist without an unhealthy dose of cognitive dissonance.

This, as one might expect, is incredibly annoying to me.

Cognitive dissonance? No, I don't see any. Here's why; the first case is an issue of retaining a sense of humor at things that are bad. Can we laugh at mental illness? FUCK YEAH OF COURSE WE CAN, AND SHOULD! Especially when it's our own!

The second is simply a bad example, because it has nothing to do with "taking mental illness lightly". It has to do with people who are not mentally ill trying to exotify it, claim a piece of it for themselves to make themselves special magic precious unicorn princess fairies.

 :hosrie:

I totally agree, it just rubs me the wrong way that so frequently the deservedly mocking responses to that sort of idiocy are liberally interspersed with "SO-AND-SO HERE IS ACTUALLY MENTALLY ILL, ASSHOLE, YOU'RE A BIG FUCKING JERK FOR THINKING IT'S SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU COOL" when it actually doesn't make them a big fucking jerk, just a small and probably inconsequential jackass.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

navkat

  • WANKer
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 12966
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2011, 07:22:31 pm »


Cognitive dissonance? No, I don't see any. Here's why; the first case is an issue of retaining a sense of humor at things that are bad. Can we laugh at mental illness? FUCK YEAH OF COURSE WE CAN, AND SHOULD! Especially when it's our own!

The second is simply a bad example, because it has nothing to do with "taking mental illness lightly". It has to do with people who are not mentally ill trying to exotify it, claim a piece of it for themselves to make themselves special magic precious unicorn princess fairies.

 :hosrie:

I totally agree, it just rubs me the wrong way that so frequently the deservedly mocking responses to that sort of idiocy are liberally interspersed with "SO-AND-SO HERE IS ACTUALLY MENTALLY ILL, ASSHOLE, YOU'RE A BIG FUCKING JERK FOR THINKING IT'S SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU COOL" when it actually doesn't make them a big fucking jerk, just a small and probably inconsequential jackass.

*Shrug* We're mentally ill...we overreact.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2011, 07:23:48 pm »
Overreaction is always appropriate, anyway.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Jasper

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 67367
  • Pull-Start Enema Wasteland
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2011, 07:27:37 pm »
It's like tshirt and jeans; Hasn't been out of fashion since it was invented.

navkat

  • WANKer
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 12966
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2011, 07:32:21 pm »
Tell a joke once, it's comedy.
Same joke three times: tragedy.

Same joke ten times: comedy again...like watching the Jif cat eat peanut butter.


IT'S SO STUPID, WHY DO I KEEP LAUGHING AT THIS?
WTF, JENN, HE'S JUST CHEWING.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 8974
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2011, 11:11:31 pm »
I think that madness is a trick word that tends to get abused. It can mean mental illness and it can mean foolishness and/or senselessness. I think that behaving in a foolish/senseless/silly manner can indeed be healthy and useful. It's the fictional Mad Hero, like the Hatter in Wonderland, Willy Wonka and Hunter S Thompson. While all of them may also have been ill (mercury poison, obsessive compulsive, crazy drug overload etc), their oddity is celebrated and the beloved nature of the character is based on their 'madness'.

"A little madness now and then, is relished by the wisest men."

The eighteenth century and nineteenth century are full of the same kind of thinking, often treating as synonyms "madness, quirky, unserious, demented, foolish, absurdity". In retrospect, we can often see dementia, mercury poisoning and other physical causes in many of the cases... but the legend, the myth continues onward. If we consider Kerry Thornley, we can see great creativity in his madness... but there was also some serious badwrong aspects to his madness as well. The same for our beloved Emperor Norton. Norton was respected by many, including Sam Clemens, but in the end he was also ill and suffered from serious problems. Its this myth that we struggle with... the trying to explain the value of not being serious, of being absurd or silly.. and invariably, due to hundreds of years of use the term madness gets tossed in. In return, people with actual illnesses may try to justify their behavior by invoking the myth of madness.

"Madness" in one sense can be incredibly freeing, in another sense entirely debilitating. If the context indicates that an author is using it as a synonym for 'absurd' then I don' think its a problem. If they're using it to justify mental illness, that seems unhealthy. It falls to the reader to determine the context, and for some who suffer (or have family that suffers) from a real illness, it can be a word the evokes a very visceral response.

Those who choose to use the term 'madness' should be careful and clear in how they use it... as Inigo Montoya said, "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

navkat

  • WANKer
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 12966
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2011, 12:39:44 am »
I think that madness is a trick word that tends to get abused. It can mean mental illness and it can mean foolishness and/or senselessness. I think that behaving in a foolish/senseless/silly manner can indeed be healthy and useful. It's the fictional Mad Hero, like the Hatter in Wonderland, Willy Wonka and Hunter S Thompson. While all of them may also have been ill (mercury poison, obsessive compulsive, crazy drug overload etc), their oddity is celebrated and the beloved nature of the character is based on their 'madness'.

"A little madness now and then, is relished by the wisest men."

The eighteenth century and nineteenth century are full of the same kind of thinking, often treating as synonyms "madness, quirky, unserious, demented, foolish, absurdity". In retrospect, we can often see dementia, mercury poisoning and other physical causes in many of the cases... but the legend, the myth continues onward. If we consider Kerry Thornley, we can see great creativity in his madness... but there was also some serious badwrong aspects to his madness as well. The same for our beloved Emperor Norton. Norton was respected by many, including Sam Clemens, but in the end he was also ill and suffered from serious problems. Its this myth that we struggle with... the trying to explain the value of not being serious, of being absurd or silly.. and invariably, due to hundreds of years of use the term madness gets tossed in. In return, people with actual illnesses may try to justify their behavior by invoking the myth of madness.

"Madness" in one sense can be incredibly freeing, in another sense entirely debilitating. If the context indicates that an author is using it as a synonym for 'absurd' then I don' think its a problem. If they're using it to justify mental illness, that seems unhealthy. It falls to the reader to determine the context, and for some who suffer (or have family that suffers) from a real illness, it can be a word the evokes a very visceral response.

Those who choose to use the term 'madness' should be careful and clear in how they use it... as Inigo Montoya said, "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."


This.

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105041
    • View Profile
Re: "The Benefits of Madness"
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2011, 01:16:40 pm »
Madness can also refer to this.