Author Topic: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works  (Read 12344 times)

Telarus

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2013, 03:46:42 pm »
Fair enough, I've nothing to say against your experiences or how they left you feeling.

Dingo seems sharp enough to learn from this situation, so I doubt that his book will "be about Loveshade, rather than Discordia", considering he's spent more time in-person with Adam Gorightly, Groucho Gandhi (the dude working with Adam to display the 1st Ed PD as prime cut-up art), Daisy Eris Cambpell (the daughter of the dude who produce the Illuminatus! stage show) & various European spags - than he has w/ Loveshade (who didn't meet him & only exchanged emails, from my understanding). I'm willing to give the book a read when it comes out.


Having said that, fuck Loveshade for stealing your content, that shit is not cool. He was definitely aware of your use-stance on your material from the one Intermittens he edited (um, this thread, I believe) & that Intermittens was only kopylefted as a whole-package & authors retained rights to individual pieces (unless they said otherwise).
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:51:06 pm by Telarus »
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2013, 05:37:37 pm »
If I recall correctly, he also came up with a line of reasoning, something like, "well, you can address the Loveshade thing in the book itself" which apparently never occurred to him that it would make the book entirely about Loveshade, rather than Discordianism.

I also, as I told him, felt like he kind of tried to downplay his inclusion of Loveshade, rather than say out front "Hey I know this is controversial but I also want to interview this guy, because there's been a lot of dialogue about him". I felt tricked and betrayed by that.

But the main reason I don't want to have anything to do with Dingo or his projects is because of the tantrum he threw when a couple of us were like "Thanks, but no thanks." He made some pretty big statements, AFTER THAT, that Loveshade was too important to leave out, and that absolutely came across as "you guys aren't as important as Loveshade so if interviewing him means losing all of you, so be it" and when a few of us were, I think justifiably, insulted by those statements, he trotted out the YOU ARE TRYING TO CONTROL/DESTROY MY PROJECT". At that point, woo boy, nope. Want nothing more to do with him.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2013, 05:44:48 pm »
What sucks is that it started out as a really good idea; and he's actually gone through with a lot of it (travelling to other countries for interviews, etc).

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2013, 05:45:54 pm »
If I recall correctly, he also came up with a line of reasoning, something like, "well, you can address the Loveshade thing in the book itself" which apparently never occurred to him that it would make the book entirely about Loveshade, rather than Discordianism.

Dingo seems sharp enough to learn from this situation, so I doubt that his book will "be about Loveshade, rather than Discordia", considering he's spent more time in-person with Adam Gorightly, Groucho Gandhi (the dude working with Adam to display the 1st Ed PD as prime cut-up art), Daisy Eris Cambpell (the daughter of the dude who produce the Illuminatus! stage show) & various European spags - than he has w/ Loveshade (who didn't meet him & only exchanged emails, from my understanding). I'm willing to give the book a read when it comes out.

You seem to have missed the grist of LMNO's point, which is that IF we had taken him up on his offer, which we didn't, then all of us talking about Loveshade would have made the book more about Loveshade than about Discordia. It isn't is because we opted not to. A book that included like four people saying "I don't support Loveshade and want no association with him or his projects" would have put the spotlight squarely on Loveshade.

So there was really, in my mind, no viable option to participate.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2013, 05:47:12 pm »
What sucks is that it started out as a really good idea; and he's actually gone through with a lot of it (travelling to other countries for interviews, etc).

Yeah, it could have been a cool project. Oh well.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Placid Dingo

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #95 on: November 21, 2013, 03:37:59 pm »
Was it Wilde who said the only thing worse than being talked about was not being talked about? It's notable that Wilde didn't have the Internet.

OK, while I don't feel it's actually essential that I place my delicate parts in EVERY shark tank that comes up, here and elsewhere, I do want to clear up some things.

1. I reread that comment and it did come off as dismissive, so I apologise for the way I phrased it. 
The comment regarding LMNO and Roger's work was just to say that at the time, I wasn't easily finding content that fit the type of collection I was putting together. I never thought that either was a bad writer, and if I did I wouldn't have made sure to use their work. If you want to accuse me of something on this count, accuse me of shitty search skills, because I've since come across plenty that would fit. And in retrospect it was also shitty wording. In the end I used two pieces of Roger's I really liked, and one from LMNO. In fact I explained that comment in PM to Roger, and said I thought he was a talented writer and I was just having trouble coming across those less explicitly Discordian pieces at the time. If that's not how I worded it that's how I'm wording it now and it applies to Roger and LMNO.
I believe I've made it pretty clear now that I admire the writing of Roger and LMNO, and I hope that I don't have to answer too many more questions or take too many more insults (such as being called a numb cunt) from here on regarding a comment that was badly worded and is now 2 years old.

2. I have a copy of Loveshade's book that I ordered to gain his account of meeting Greg Hill, though by the time it arrived I had come to the conclusion that it was probably fabricated. In that book is a piece by Jon Swabey, that Jon is aware of, and while is not pleased, acknowledged that the piece was copyleft. There is also a piece by Vex that he gives permission to use on this very forum I believe. 
Nobody else, including Roger or Nigel, has their work in the book AFAICT. There is a front page listing thanks, but I don't remember who's listed (book is in Aus) but again I'm pretty sure Roger and Nigel weren't listed. I know there are others on this forum who have copies and it might be worth asking. But there was definitely nothing that I recognised as belonging to anyone else.

3. The bizarre conspiracy that I was at some point converted to being a 'member of the Loveshade family' and have been since working somehow for the interests of said Loveshade family is interesting as far as say, a plot twist in a Discordian themed soap opera, but really has no bearing in reality. My communications with Loveshade have been limited to a couple of emails. Maybe more than a couple if you suspect, as I do, a couple of other people contacting me were alt accounts of Reverend Loveshade. Maybe we've exchanged comments more than once on 23ae- I know he criticised a post I made there once, but I don't really keep tabs on 23ae.
But the point is I am no more part of the Loveshade Family than I am part of the Manson Family, or Sly and Family Stone. Our contact was limited to emails.

4. My position on why I insisted on keeping Loveshade has been, and continues to be misrepresented. 
I never said that Loveshade or anyone else was too important to lose. What I did say, repeatedly, was that I felt I needed to be able to choose who I did and did not speak to for myself. I think that's reasonable.
I didn't tell anyone they were trying to control my project. I did say that if I didn't get to choose who I spoke to I would feel that I didn't have full control of my project. That's not to say that I thought anyone intended to take control.


I don't have any malice or anger at anyone here. I have been a little flippant in my reply because I find some of the accusations seem a little over the top to be taken seriously. 

There are some other comments here that I take issue with but they are personal interpretation, not inaccuracy so I will simply take the line that I can disagree without making a noise about it.

If anything I'm saying here is obviously inaccurate based on my previous comments, I encourage you to confront me with those previous comments. That will allow me to either explain any misunderstanding or apologise unconditionally if I have said anything I do not stand by.

As always I welcome questions.

Also, in my view this not only was but continues to be a cool project. I am in Poland now, with further interviews in Germany and Netherlands before the unenviable task of transcribing about a fucktonne (technical name) of interviews. The project is easily found on Facebook if you want to see what I've been up to.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #96 on: November 21, 2013, 03:44:03 pm »
4. My position on why I insisted on keeping Loveshade has been, and continues to be misrepresented.

Does it matter?  I mean, really?

Nobody ever said you couldn't use that thieving little pedo.  A few of us said we wouldn't participate if he was included.  IIRC, that is when you DID, in fact, accuse Nigel of "trying to control your project."

But all that aside, you now have the interview you felt that you needed...That is to say, you have the MOST IMPORTANT DISCORDIAN IN THE WORLD.  Who has that title, presumably, because he's the best or at least most "prolific" content thief out there.

I don't see what the fuss is about.
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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #97 on: November 21, 2013, 03:51:27 pm »
4. My position on why I insisted on keeping Loveshade has been, and continues to be misrepresented.

Does it matter?  I mean, really?

Nobody ever said you couldn't use that thieving little pedo.  A few of us said we wouldn't participate if he was included.  IIRC, that is when you DID, in fact, accuse Nigel of "trying to control your project."

But all that aside, you now have the interview you felt that you needed...That is to say, you have the MOST IMPORTANT DISCORDIAN IN THE WORLD.  Who has that title, presumably, because he's the best or at least most "prolific" content thief out there.

I don't see what the fuss is about.

BUT DISCORDIA IS ALL ABOUT BREAKING RULES AND STEALING CONTENT AND DIDDLING KIDZ. Z0MG 23 FNORD WORD SALAD!

 :x :x :x
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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #98 on: November 21, 2013, 04:03:37 pm »
Does it matter? Yes. I have made a choice that many people have found upsetting and I don't want that choice to be misunderstood. If I thought someone had missed an interview with me because they believed someone else was 'more important' or whatever I may be upset, so I don't want other people to think that's my position. So obviously I do want people to understand my reasoning, and don't really want to be regarded in a bad light based on inaccurate information. I'm sure I've said enough things to be hoisted by my own petard, not someone else's.

I was told so many times that I was 'accusing people of taking over my project' that I looked through the Chasing Eris conversation to make sure I wasn't lying in defending myself. I don't think you do recall correctly. I did say something to the effect that I felt I would lose control of my project if I didn't have the ability to choose which interviews I would or would not include. But I do not remember telling Nigel that she was trying to control my project, I do not believe I said that, and I cannot find any quote of myself saying that. I don't take that position now either.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

Faust

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #99 on: November 21, 2013, 04:08:09 pm »
4. My position on why I insisted on keeping Loveshade has been, and continues to be misrepresented.

Does it matter?  I mean, really?

Nobody ever said you couldn't use that thieving little pedo.  A few of us said we wouldn't participate if he was included.  IIRC, that is when you DID, in fact, accuse Nigel of "trying to control your project."

But all that aside, you now have the interview you felt that you needed...That is to say, you have the MOST IMPORTANT DISCORDIAN IN THE WORLD.  Who has that title, presumably, because he's the best or at least most "prolific" content thief out there.

I don't see what the fuss is about.

BUT DISCORDIA IS ALL ABOUT BREAKING RULES AND STEALING CONTENT AND DIDDLING KIDZ. Z0MG 23 FNORD WORD SALAD!

 :x :x :x
Not helping, or a legitimate thing to say. It was clearly not a choice between LS and others. People didn't want their work in the same issue as loveshade and which they are perfectly entitled to do, I wouldn't want my work associated with him.

It's hard enough to get any discordian project out the door without adding sensationalised drama like this to the mix. Unless you have a legitimate problem with Dingo which other do, please leave it out.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #100 on: November 21, 2013, 06:53:34 pm »
You did say that, Dingo. You said it in a Facebook group, though I don't remember now which one. You had a petty little tantrum and accused Roger and I of trying to sabotage your project because I posted to let other people know that you were including Loveshade, and I knew that there were people there who would consider that fact an influence on their comfort in participating. At another point also stated that you "would not allow anyone else to take over creative control" or words to that effect.

If you recall, that was also when I stated that I lost all respect for you, and went from merely not participating to having bad feelings toward you over it.

Your revisionist history and attempts at damage control are not as convincing to anyone else as they are to yourself.

Best of luck with your project; fuck off.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:58:54 pm by Mrs. Nigelson »
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #101 on: November 21, 2013, 06:59:47 pm »
If I thought someone had missed an interview with me because they believed someone else was 'more important' or whatever I may be upset, so I don't want other people to think that's my position.

It was never about who was "important".  It was about not wanting to be associated with Loveshade in ANY manner.  Not that it helps, really.  My name somehow got attached to his book, and I had to hassle his publisher (based in Tucson, small world) to get my name removed.

I had commented before that I did feel it was odd that Loveshade > people not wanting to be associated with Loveshade, given that Loveshade hasn't actually done a damn thing with respect to Discordianism (except stealing other peoples' shit), and that he's a filthy fucking pedo, but that was just a passing comment.

In any case, it's a done deal.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #102 on: November 21, 2013, 07:03:18 pm »
I know that I have zero leverage to ensure that you respect my wishes, but I would like to request that I not be mentioned in your book at all, under any name or guise.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #103 on: November 21, 2013, 07:03:36 pm »
3. The bizarre conspiracy that I was at some point converted to being a 'member of the Loveshade family' and have been since working somehow for the interests of said Loveshade family is interesting as far as say, a plot twist in a Discordian themed soap opera, but really has no bearing in reality.

I don't believe you.

Quote
4. My position on why I insisted on keeping Loveshade has been, and continues to be misrepresented.
I never said that Loveshade or anyone else was too important to lose. What I did say, repeatedly, was that I felt I needed to be able to choose who I did and did not speak to for myself. I think that's reasonable.

You also said that no book on Discordia would be complete without Loveshade, which is both untrue and really, really weird.

And you did say that Nigel was trying to take control of your project, or that she and I were, on facebook.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Intermittens Presents: XX and other works
« Reply #104 on: November 21, 2013, 07:04:00 pm »
I know that I have zero leverage to ensure that you respect my wishes, but I would like to request that I not be mentioned in your book at all, under any name or guise.

Likewise.  No mention at all, please.

ETA:  And there IS some leverage, to a degree.  If I AM mentioned, though I don't expect to be, be DAMN sure that what you say has no whiff of libel.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.