Author Topic: Occupy  (Read 83801 times)

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2011, 07:50:03 pm »
Jaime, Alex, Tiffany and 7 more of your friends like VIOLENT REVOLUTION.

But are NOT ATTENDING.

:lulz:

Wow.  :lulz:
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


LMNO

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2011, 08:00:38 pm »
Jaime, Alex, Tiffany and 7 more of your friends like VIOLENT REVOLUTION.

But are NOT ATTENDING.

:lulz:


:potd:

Triple Zero

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2011, 09:04:45 pm »
There is a lot to be said for the application of fast, brutal but ultimately effective action.  What we are seeing here is someone picking at a festering wound.

What sort of thing would that be? Anything I can think of would meet with such a backlash (terrorism, of course) it wouldn't be funny. And I bet the media could spin it to calm people down again.

I see more in the thing you said a while back, that any kind of protest movement won't / can't / hasn't shown to be effective unless there is some political voice behind it as well, explaining, being the mouth of the group, as it were. I think you said this in relation to the London Riots.
But it goes for the Teaparty as well, astroturf as they may be, those mindless zombies with the stupid signs, they are (nearly) enough to affect political change because there is a well-oiled political propaganda machine behind it.

But then, there is nobody in the US to be that voice, is there? Or is there?

Without people making the statements, it'll go nowhere, I mean, it's obvious, this goes for pretty much all protests I've seen anywhere, half the people don't even know why they are there, some are there because they are angry at something else, and only about 2-5% are able to really articulate wtf this is all about.
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e-prime disclaimer: let it seem fairly unclear I understand the apparent subjectivity of the above statements. maybe.

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Cramulus

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2011, 09:19:35 pm »
a little bit about todays' bridge shenanigans:

Quote from: http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/jp-morgan-chase-donates-4-6-million-to-nypd-on-eve-of-protests/
Today, OccupyWallStreet decided to march across the Brooklyn Bridge (a proud New York tradition) to Chase Manhattan Plaza in Brooklyn. Reports in the media indicate that the police at first seemed to be encouraging the protestors not only to cross the bridge, but were walking in front of the crowd, seemingly escorting them across. Over 700 of the marchers were arrested, and the media has a rather amusing “he said, she said” account, with OccupyWallStreet claiming entrapment and the cops batting their baby blues and trying to look innocent.

We simply don’t know whether the police would have behaved one iota differently in the absence of the JP Morgan donation. But it raises the troubling perspective that they might have.


and a peek behind the curtain of the NY Times:

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/new-york-times-alters-its-lead-story-about-protests/


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2011, 09:21:29 pm »
What I am seeing here is very promising, because it's escalating. Once escalation passes a certain point, it becomes almost impossible to stop because efforts to stop it feed into it. The only way to stop escalation is to conscientiously ignore it as a form of suppression, and that tactic, which has been effective for decades, is no longer working.

The next tactic after ignoring it is to try to control it by cooperating with it, in which the authorities put on a show of allowing/abetting the protestors. "See? We are with you, guiding and protecting you until you get bored and go home".

That could work, but if at any point there is any kind of altercation of any kind, and it's more or less a guarantee that there will be, then the tension bubble will pop. The protests are on the cusp of being meaningful... if even a third of the people joining the Occupy groups actually show up, it is going to be a very tense situation for the affected cities. If the police attempt to control the protest through intimidation or violence, it is almost a guarantee that not only will the mob turn ugly, but also that more people will join in.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Cain

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2011, 09:23:03 pm »
My personal preference would be for a two-tiered approach.

Tier one would be the street level protest.  Only, this would be an actual occupation.  Take over the New York Stock Exchange.  Occupy the offices of Goldman Sachs etc  Down the power generators which supply energy to the offices of Wall Street plutocrats, or better yet, cut their internet connections off.  All of this would be non-violent (though it would be nearing the edge of that), cost the plutocrats real money and actually get them quite afraid.

Tier two would be the political level.  That's the more difficult one, due to the US's advanced political psychopathy.  Here, you need to connect the street level occupation with sympathetic politicians, to bolster and support them against a system that is really geared them to be inactive (and to provide a useful knife-to-the-throat should they consider defecting from the cause, like we discussed on the board in relation to Liz Warren).  Here, it becomes a lot less easier to see what is to be done.  Either you can work in reformist mode, but that will only work for so long.  Eventually, such a movement would likely have to engage in Tea Party-esque holding the nation hostage, threatening to stall the entire political process unless one's agenda is passed.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2011, 09:29:35 pm »
Occupying private property would be trespassing, and taking out generators and internet would be vandalism. There is no good way to publicly organize those illegal actions.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Cain

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2011, 09:31:59 pm »
Occupying private property would be trespassing, and taking out generators and internet would be vandalism. There is no good way to publicly organize those illegal actions.



Didnt seem to unduly trouble them in France, Greece etc

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2011, 09:32:11 pm »
My personal preference would be for a two-tiered approach.

ironically enough, Kalle Lasn (the spag behind Adbusters and, indirectly, these protests) agrees with this method. In his terrible book Culture Jam, Lasn describes what he calls "the jaws of change" - he says that to get anything done, to change the status quo, you need two angles working in concert. Below, you have grassroots movements run by regular shmucks, and above, you need some more entrenched support. A serious investor or government sponsor, for example. Somebody with political currency.



ETA: and while he doesn't explicitly advocate it, I suspect Lasn thinks that the lower jaw can't do its job without some seriously disruptive (but nonviolent) civil disobedience. One thing he advocates in Culture Jam is that we, as consumers, need to act as a monetary penalty for corporate behavior we don't like. Make it costly for them to screw us.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 09:36:26 pm by Cramulus »

Doktor Howl

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2011, 09:56:18 pm »
The next tactic after ignoring it is to try to control it by cooperating with it, in which the authorities put on a show of allowing/abetting the protestors. "See? We are with you, guiding and protecting you until you get bored and go home".

Yep.  If the democrats had had any sense at all in 1968, they would have had the national guard go in to Lincoln Park to "protect" the demonstrators from the cops...The same way they sent a military hospital unit to Woodstock.  It's awful hard to stay angry with The Man, when he's holding off 300 Chicago PD apes, or treating your squashed foot in a tent surgery.

rong

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2011, 10:12:32 pm »
Civilisation is too far away for me to participate.  I'd be down with occupy Wal-Mart, though.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2011, 10:13:09 pm »
Civilisation is too far away for me to participate.  I'd be down with occupy Wal-Mart, though.

Do they have Wal-Marts in New Zealand?   :?

rong

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2011, 10:21:46 pm »
Maybe my misspelling mislead you? But I'm not that far from civilization.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2011, 12:50:27 am »
The next tactic after ignoring it is to try to control it by cooperating with it, in which the authorities put on a show of allowing/abetting the protestors. "See? We are with you, guiding and protecting you until you get bored and go home".

Yep.  If the democrats had had any sense at all in 1968, they would have had the national guard go in to Lincoln Park to "protect" the demonstrators from the cops...The same way they sent a military hospital unit to Woodstock.  It's awful hard to stay angry with The Man, when he's holding off 300 Chicago PD apes, or treating your squashed foot in a tent surgery.

OR, PERHAPS, the Marines?  :lulz: http://www.newsnet14.com/?p=81888
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Elder Iptuous

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2011, 01:34:53 am »
i think this Reddit thread is what started the Marines coming in..
I'm hoping a shit ton of them show up.  and then i hope that the protestors slooowly up the ante to push the envelope with the cops while not alienating the Marines.


Also, there's a reddit thread where some Marine veterans are planning on joining the protestors to protect them from police.  It appears that the OP and 15 other Marines are going, but more in the thread said they would join.  if there becomes a sizable group of Marine veterans standing off with police, that could get interesting....