Author Topic: Occupy  (Read 30047 times)

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #765 on: November 15, 2011, 02:27:59 pm »
The Occupy protests are pretty fascinating to me... first, they were dismissed because they were small; they grew. Then, they were dismissed because they didn't have a strong message; a message largely based around responsibility emerged. Now, they are dismissed because their demands, members and processes are seen as childish...

Violence is escalating against them, and the movement is starting to shrink as winter bites. The main lesson I think a lot of people are starting to realize from this is that if you let the establishment dismiss you, you will be dismissed.

Shutting down the stock exchange sounds like an interesting development and I look forward to seeing where that goes. But as this goes on and fails to achieve any tangible changes, I think the people who are actually interested in effecting change are going to realize that you can't just sit around and talk in order to do that. You need to have a real ability to threaten the status quo in some fashion.

It says a lot to me that politicians have responded much more openly and directly to the London Riots than they have to the Occupy London movement (mostly, that has consisted of people laughing at the ridiculous protesters blocking off the Church as though the Church of England is somehow relevant to the debate). The Riots provoked a debate about the underclass and what could drive people to it, although it was a short-lived one. Occupy London has largely provoked discussion about whether they should have the right to protest rather than the issues they are protesting about.

I've also heard a lot of Occupy protesters talking about how the system is 'ours' and they are there to remind the politicians of that. It kind of boggles my mind how they can come to that conclusion. After so long protesting, surely they should have taken a step backwards by now and realized that actually, the system is resolutely not 'ours' in any meaningful sense, as if it was, we'd be in a position to make it do what 'we' want, rather than being in the position where the vast majority of people agree that shit is broken, but have no idea how to even go about fixing it.

I think of the "OURS" part as being about integration.  There is no system. There are numbers of people behaving in certain ways that may or may not actually conform to what they "should' be doing.  The trouble with the "Who's streets? OUR streets" type slogans is that it implies "ours not yours" instead of "all of ours."  The thing that I really DON'T like about Occupy and the 99% vs. 1% conception is that it implies that there's a real division among the classes.  There isn't.  There's a mismanagement crisis.  We in America supposedly have something like an "Open Door" policy.  The truth is that the folks "on the floor" distrust, and the folks "in the office" don't listen.

This state of affairs allows a communication gap that is inevitable to some degree and has been maintained and widened by those that are dishonest and have something to gain by it.  People are not as stupid and ignorant, or craven, as some of the generalizations around here would seem to indicate.  Some of them are, to be sure, but the majority really do have the ability to get their shit together and effect change.  The "corruption at the top" vision is totally subjective propaganda intended to strip individuals of hope and make them feel small and powerless. 

A human that is fully functional is rarely powerless. Even if you face inevitable death you have the power to meet it like a samurai or spend your last few moments despairing because you can't stop something inevitable.

There is only the totality of the people, not some numerical division by percentage.  What needs doing is the exposure of corruption and elimination of apathy.  This is not about economics, it's a "spiritual" process.  The resistance by the Occupy people is still young and simple, but it represents the exercise of power by people that really want to do something.  That's important. Even if it's still developing it represents an erosion of the apathetic sate that has allowed things to get as bad as they have.  Even if the whole thing proves ineffectual, or even disastrous, at least it's something being tried. 

Occupy is only the beginning, I think, either of the end of this current corruption or of a more effective means to shout out to the office that they need to stop stealing from the company and help fix the equipment before there's nothing left to steal.

___________________________________________

Of course there's always resistance to change.  Check this out! OWS got it bad.

http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

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Demolition_Squid

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #766 on: November 15, 2011, 02:40:35 pm »
The Occupy protests are pretty fascinating to me... first, they were dismissed because they were small; they grew. Then, they were dismissed because they didn't have a strong message; a message largely based around responsibility emerged. Now, they are dismissed because their demands, members and processes are seen as childish...

Violence is escalating against them, and the movement is starting to shrink as winter bites. The main lesson I think a lot of people are starting to realize from this is that if you let the establishment dismiss you, you will be dismissed.

Shutting down the stock exchange sounds like an interesting development and I look forward to seeing where that goes. But as this goes on and fails to achieve any tangible changes, I think the people who are actually interested in effecting change are going to realize that you can't just sit around and talk in order to do that. You need to have a real ability to threaten the status quo in some fashion.

It says a lot to me that politicians have responded much more openly and directly to the London Riots than they have to the Occupy London movement (mostly, that has consisted of people laughing at the ridiculous protesters blocking off the Church as though the Church of England is somehow relevant to the debate). The Riots provoked a debate about the underclass and what could drive people to it, although it was a short-lived one. Occupy London has largely provoked discussion about whether they should have the right to protest rather than the issues they are protesting about.

I've also heard a lot of Occupy protesters talking about how the system is 'ours' and they are there to remind the politicians of that. It kind of boggles my mind how they can come to that conclusion. After so long protesting, surely they should have taken a step backwards by now and realized that actually, the system is resolutely not 'ours' in any meaningful sense, as if it was, we'd be in a position to make it do what 'we' want, rather than being in the position where the vast majority of people agree that shit is broken, but have no idea how to even go about fixing it.

I think of the "OURS" part as being about integration.  There is no system. There are numbers of people behaving in certain ways that may or may not actually conform to what they "should' be doing.  The trouble with the "Who's streets? OUR streets" type slogans is that it implies "ours not yours" instead of "all of ours."  The thing that I really DON'T like about Occupy and the 99% vs. 1% conception is that it implies that there's a real division among the classes.  There isn't.  There's a mismanagement crisis.  We in America supposedly have something like an "Open Door" policy.  The truth is that the folks "on the floor" distrust, and the folks "in the office" don't listen.

This state of affairs allows a communication gap that is inevitable to some degree and has been maintained and widened by those that are dishonest and have something to gain by it.  People are not as stupid and ignorant, or craven, as some of the generalizations around here would seem to indicate.  Some of them are, to be sure, but the majority really do have the ability to get their shit together and effect change.  The "corruption at the top" vision is totally subjective propaganda intended to strip individuals of hope and make them feel small and powerless. 

A human that is fully functional is rarely powerless. Even if you face inevitable death you have the power to meet it like a samurai or spend your last few moments despairing because you can't stop something inevitable.

There is only the totality of the people, not some numerical division by percentage.  What needs doing is the exposure of corruption and elimination of apathy.  This is not about economics, it's a "spiritual" process.  The resistance by the Occupy people is still young and simple, but it represents the exercise of power by people that really want to do something.  That's important. Even if it's still developing it represents an erosion of the apathetic sate that has allowed things to get as bad as they have.  Even if the whole thing proves ineffectual, or even disastrous, at least it's something being tried. 

Occupy is only the beginning, I think, either of the end of this current corruption or of a more effective means to shout out to the office that they need to stop stealing from the company and help fix the equipment before there's nothing left to steal.

___________________________________________

Of course there's always resistance to change.  Check this out! OWS got it bad.

http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/

There very much is.

People are not fundamentally good. Some individual elites (those in the '1%') might be able to identify with and want to help alleviate the issues that the majority of people have to deal with. The majority do not.

As an example - during the credit crunch, some BBC reporters did an 'inside The City' report on bankers and why they get such ridiculous bonuses. The answer was that basically, a culture has sprung up in The City that your self worth = the amount of money you are earning. People would regularly, and not as a joke, say 'I am worth two of you' if they got a bonus twice the size of yours. Or three times. Or four times.

So, if the average wage is £24k, and you got a bonus of £1 million+ that means you are worth what, more than three dozen 'regular' people?

The people who benefit the most from the current system do not consider you to be a human being. They consider you an idiot at best (because, after all, you aren't earning anything like they are, and these people sincerely believe that doing so is simply a matter of smarts, skill and hard work) and a peasant at worst. The divides between these parts of society are very real, and the rich and powerful have identified it for a long time. They've already declared war on you.

But whilst people are willing to look the other way and utter platitudes like 'we're all in this together', they will keep cheerfully fucking you over. It isn't in their interest to do otherwise! If you are going to let them sell you and your family for the next six generations into slavery and serfdom in order to pay for them and their family to enjoy the lifestyle of the superrich, why the fuck would they do anything else?
Truly, though our element is time,
We are not suited to the long perspectives
Open at each instant of our lives.
They link us to our losses: worse,
They show us what we have as it once was,
Blindingly undiminished, just as though
By acting differently, we could have kept it so.

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #767 on: November 15, 2011, 03:58:38 pm »
The Occupy protests are pretty fascinating to me... first, they were dismissed because they were small; they grew. Then, they were dismissed because they didn't have a strong message; a message largely based around responsibility emerged. Now, they are dismissed because their demands, members and processes are seen as childish...

Violence is escalating against them, and the movement is starting to shrink as winter bites. The main lesson I think a lot of people are starting to realize from this is that if you let the establishment dismiss you, you will be dismissed.

Shutting down the stock exchange sounds like an interesting development and I look forward to seeing where that goes. But as this goes on and fails to achieve any tangible changes, I think the people who are actually interested in effecting change are going to realize that you can't just sit around and talk in order to do that. You need to have a real ability to threaten the status quo in some fashion.

It says a lot to me that politicians have responded much more openly and directly to the London Riots than they have to the Occupy London movement (mostly, that has consisted of people laughing at the ridiculous protesters blocking off the Church as though the Church of England is somehow relevant to the debate). The Riots provoked a debate about the underclass and what could drive people to it, although it was a short-lived one. Occupy London has largely provoked discussion about whether they should have the right to protest rather than the issues they are protesting about.

I've also heard a lot of Occupy protesters talking about how the system is 'ours' and they are there to remind the politicians of that. It kind of boggles my mind how they can come to that conclusion. After so long protesting, surely they should have taken a step backwards by now and realized that actually, the system is resolutely not 'ours' in any meaningful sense, as if it was, we'd be in a position to make it do what 'we' want, rather than being in the position where the vast majority of people agree that shit is broken, but have no idea how to even go about fixing it.

I think of the "OURS" part as being about integration.  There is no system. There are numbers of people behaving in certain ways that may or may not actually conform to what they "should' be doing.  The trouble with the "Who's streets? OUR streets" type slogans is that it implies "ours not yours" instead of "all of ours."  The thing that I really DON'T like about Occupy and the 99% vs. 1% conception is that it implies that there's a real division among the classes.  There isn't.  There's a mismanagement crisis.  We in America supposedly have something like an "Open Door" policy.  The truth is that the folks "on the floor" distrust, and the folks "in the office" don't listen.

This state of affairs allows a communication gap that is inevitable to some degree and has been maintained and widened by those that are dishonest and have something to gain by it.  People are not as stupid and ignorant, or craven, as some of the generalizations around here would seem to indicate.  Some of them are, to be sure, but the majority really do have the ability to get their shit together and effect change.  The "corruption at the top" vision is totally subjective propaganda intended to strip individuals of hope and make them feel small and powerless. 

A human that is fully functional is rarely powerless. Even if you face inevitable death you have the power to meet it like a samurai or spend your last few moments despairing because you can't stop something inevitable.

There is only the totality of the people, not some numerical division by percentage.  What needs doing is the exposure of corruption and elimination of apathy.  This is not about economics, it's a "spiritual" process.  The resistance by the Occupy people is still young and simple, but it represents the exercise of power by people that really want to do something.  That's important. Even if it's still developing it represents an erosion of the apathetic sate that has allowed things to get as bad as they have.  Even if the whole thing proves ineffectual, or even disastrous, at least it's something being tried. 

Occupy is only the beginning, I think, either of the end of this current corruption or of a more effective means to shout out to the office that they need to stop stealing from the company and help fix the equipment before there's nothing left to steal.

___________________________________________

Of course there's always resistance to change.  Check this out! OWS got it bad.

http://www.occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/

There very much is.

People are not fundamentally good. Some individual elites (those in the '1%') might be able to identify with and want to help alleviate the issues that the majority of people have to deal with. The majority do not.

As an example - during the credit crunch, some BBC reporters did an 'inside The City' report on bankers and why they get such ridiculous bonuses. The answer was that basically, a culture has sprung up in The City that your self worth = the amount of money you are earning. People would regularly, and not as a joke, say 'I am worth two of you' if they got a bonus twice the size of yours. Or three times. Or four times.

So, if the average wage is £24k, and you got a bonus of £1 million+ that means you are worth what, more than three dozen 'regular' people?

The people who benefit the most from the current system do not consider you to be a human being
. They consider you an idiot at best (because, after all, you aren't earning anything like they are, and these people sincerely believe that doing so is simply a matter of smarts, skill and hard work) and a peasant at worst. The divides between these parts of society are very real, and the rich and powerful have identified it for a long time. They've already declared war on you.

But whilst people are willing to look the other way and utter platitudes like 'we're all in this together', they will keep cheerfully fucking you over. It isn't in their interest to do otherwise! If you are going to let them sell you and your family for the next six generations into slavery and serfdom in order to pay for them and their family to enjoy the lifestyle of the superrich, why the fuck would they do anything else?

So it would seem that they suffer from a delusion.  Maybe I do too.  The soul of these folks, their very being, can be entirely selfish.  I know this well.  I sure the fuck can be.  I'm not a Utopian Discordian.  I LOVE OMelets and rather than despair for broken eggs would give extra points for style, flavor, and speed of production.  As an aside I also would Never use a golden chamberpot unless I was about to trade it in at one of the "Cash for Gold" places ripping off the last bits of hard value in America, for the lulz not the cash.   

The problem is that the sustainable solution lies in the opposite direction from what is purely self interest. If the people at the top want to stay there then they need to have the merit necessary.  That merit is found in what is best for the most with the least waste.  There is a form of enlightened self-interest that needs to make only minor self sacrifice for considerable mutual gain.  The mad grasping for the interest of the self is far beyond the point of diminishing return for them.  They need to take SO MUCH for only minor gain for themselves at this point, and some fail to notice that the things and people that they need to continue in their conception of value provide far more value if functioning well. 

It's like the Charlton Heston quote out of "Moses"-"Healthy slaves make many bricks, the sick make few...the dead make none."  Goddamnit!  There comes a point when the old "Non Serviam" is no longer useful.  That's really just a way to say "I serve only myself."  Humanity does not function that way, and individuals barely do, and rarely well.  If the situation we are in necessitates a question of service, "Who?  How? Why? Etc", then it is necessary that the people that would be served realize they must likewise serve.  If they will not then the walls NEED to come down.  The foundation of the temple is already a ruin.  We built it.  If it comes down in a controlled fashion and we can spare the materials.. great!  For all of us.  If there's a fundamental madness that goes deeper than materialism, then tough shit for us all.  We will rebuild in the ruins.

You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

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Cain

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #768 on: November 15, 2011, 07:32:30 pm »
The OWS library was confiscated by the police

http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/892805-264/occupy_wall_street_library_removed.html.csp

Trashing libraries is not a good look, historically speaking

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #769 on: November 15, 2011, 07:35:52 pm »
Ok, time to call the endgame.

Occupy ends:

1) Bloody beatdown by the cops.

2) Increased disinterest and frostbite of the protesters.

3) The plutocracy caves.   :roll:
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Kurt Christ

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #770 on: November 15, 2011, 07:44:13 pm »
I call token concessions made once external factors (cops and cold) have done their part in the demoralization of protesters, effectively defusing the movement with minimal loss to bankers and politicians.
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Re: Occupy
« Reply #771 on: November 15, 2011, 08:35:09 pm »
I think it's still too early to call.

The thing is just starting up.  I'm betting you will definitely see "options" 1 and 2 come to pass but those are not endgames in and of themselves.

If the PTB want it to end then the Idea must be discredited, not the "Occupy" movement itself.  I think this unlikley, but for all I know it'll be done in time for a nice quiet holiday dinner before the new year.


The OWS library was confiscated by the police

http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/892805-264/occupy_wall_street_library_removed.html.csp

Trashing libraries is not a good look, historically speaking

No, it's pretty common though.  What a terrible waste.   :sad:
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #772 on: November 15, 2011, 08:39:42 pm »
Ok, time to call the endgame.

Occupy ends:

1) Bloody beatdown by the cops.

2) Increased disinterest and frostbite of the protesters.

3) The plutocracy caves.   :roll:

I don't see any of those as very likely, and I don't think you've been following the movement very closely if you think the endgame is in sight:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/10/13/poll_occupy_wall_street_is_twice_as_popular_as_the_tea_party.html

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #773 on: November 15, 2011, 08:51:14 pm »
You see people living in tents through the winter, and the various local governments stand idly by?

LMNO
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Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

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"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #774 on: November 15, 2011, 09:02:51 pm »
You see people living in tents through the winter, and the various local governments stand idly by?

So you are equating popular support for Occupy with living in tents? If the tents go, widespread support for Occupy will just vanish?

And speaking of government's role in Occupy, Zuccotti Park protesters just got a court order to let them back in the park.
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Re: Occupy
« Reply #775 on: November 15, 2011, 09:13:35 pm »
You're reading too much into my post. I was referring to the actual people actually protesting, not the ideology or public support behind it.

- cops have started the beatings.
- protesters are forming pragmatically useless GAs.
- The media has begun compartimentalization and convenient labelling.
- Fringe left movements are trying to threadjack the OP.
- Winter Is Coming.

As Occupy now exists, it is unsustainable. Eventually, OWS will go home.

My question is, in what way will they go home?
LMNO
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First Church of Last Exit Before Toll
The Spider Project.

Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #776 on: November 15, 2011, 09:56:45 pm »
You're reading too much into my post. I was referring to the actual people actually protesting, not the ideology or public support behind it.

- cops have started the beatings.
- protesters are forming pragmatically useless GAs.
- The media has begun compartimentalization and convenient labelling.
- Fringe left movements are trying to threadjack the OP.
- Winter Is Coming.

As Occupy now exists, it is unsustainable. Eventually, OWS will go home.

My question is, in what way will they go home?

Oh I see.   :wink:

I think those things are still the overture, hopefully they'll go home after a marvelous, disorderly crescendo.
Then get warm again and be back in force by early spring.  It's the marvelous thing to me about this whole thing.. the strategic flexibility.
They lose nothing if they get booted out of Zucotti park eventually. There will always be a sidewalk, somewhere,that they can disrupt things on.  Maybe they could take some of that money they've got and just lease a big chunk of space or hire a cleaning service so the government has less of a pretext to boot them next time.

If they last the winter and I can get the resources together I want to go to the heart of things and promote my business interests while documenting the movement from the inside.  Too damn broke right now though and will be moving in early January.  :argh!:

I think they'll still be around by the time I get myself prepped though.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #777 on: November 15, 2011, 09:57:16 pm »
You're reading too much into my post. I was referring to the actual people actually protesting, not the ideology or public support behind it.

- cops have started the beatings.
- protesters are forming pragmatically useless GAs.
- The media has begun compartimentalization and convenient labelling.
- Fringe left movements are trying to threadjack the OP.
- Winter Is Coming.

As Occupy now exists, it is unsustainable. Eventually, OWS will go home.

My question is, in what way will they go home?

1 - The beatings have only garnered more sympathy for OWS and galvanized supporters.
2 - The GAs certainly have their drawbacks, but characterizing them as "pragmatically useless" ignores how GAs have effectively served as a public forum and a point of local coordination
3 - Yet Occupy enjoys twice the support of the Tea Party. Their most fundamental concerns have entered the global conversation in spite of the media's attempts to squelch it.
4 - Key words: "fringe" and "trying". This has had even less of an effect than the corporate media.
5 - Have you ever camped in the snow in February? I have. For 3 weeks straight without a generator, expensive equipment, or a continual flow of donated goods and services.

I understand your pessimism, but it's not very well-informed. Have you been to an Occupy encampment and actually talked with anyone there?
Skin Monster of Inappropriately-Placed Parsnip Removal

“It's too bad that whole families have to be torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs.” — J A C K   H A N D E Y

"Open your ass and your heart and mind will follow." — C H E S T E R   M A I N A R D

Nigel

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #778 on: November 15, 2011, 11:44:42 pm »
Occupy Twilight?

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Occupy-movement-reaches-Twilight-home-of-Forks-133875848.html

This is easily the cutest of all the Occupy protests.
Tiny and Terrible Strap-On Fuckhorde of Tonight's Wrong Turn.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”

“People get used to anything. The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free, you have to be acutely aware of being a slave.”
― Assata Shaku

Nigel

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Re: Occupy
« Reply #779 on: November 15, 2011, 11:46:12 pm »
Occupy is just starting. The people in the movement have problems, but the movement itself is not going away. There is no easy outcome.
Tiny and Terrible Strap-On Fuckhorde of Tonight's Wrong Turn.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”

“People get used to anything. The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free, you have to be acutely aware of being a slave.”
― Assata Shaku