Author Topic: Handcuffs  (Read 7817 times)

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2012, 01:15:35 am »
I can understand that there aren't any things higher than us. They are just memes that infect us with fear so we never want to let them go. The only ones holding us back are ourselves. Does this mean that by being stoic nihilists and pragmatists that all our problems will be solved?That I'm not so sure about.

What the hell are you talking about?  I don't think you even understand what's going on here.
He is talking about the argument that the instutitions that oppress us, The MachineTM et al, are just other people right? The only one who is really holding each of us back and limiting our freedom is ourselves. We give in to fear, hate, and ingrained assumptions and that is what stops us. Internalization of petty external rules is the true source of individual oppression.
So if we abandoned our emotions, stoicism, if we rejected external restrictions, part of embracing nihilism, we could remove these limitations and truly be free.
The proposed solution is social revolution but I am skeptical.
This is how I understand the argument but I suppose that it could be fatally flawed. Could you tell me where I went wrong please?
The only way to "truly be free" is to eat a shotgun, kid.

Not a recommendation, a warning.
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Wolfgang Absolutus

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2012, 01:22:22 am »
I can understand that there aren't any things higher than us. They are just memes that infect us with fear so we never want to let them go. The only ones holding us back are ourselves. Does this mean that by being stoic nihilists and pragmatists that all our problems will be solved?That I'm not so sure about.

What the hell are you talking about?  I don't think you even understand what's going on here.
He is talking about the argument that the instutitions that oppress us, The MachineTM et al, are just other people right? The only one who is really holding each of us back and limiting our freedom is ourselves. We give in to fear, hate, and ingrained assumptions and that is what stops us. Internalization of petty external rules is the true source of individual oppression.
So if we abandoned our emotions, stoicism, if we rejected external restrictions, part of embracing nihilism, we could remove these limitations and truly be free.
The proposed solution is social revolution but I am skeptical.
This is how I understand the argument but I suppose that it could be fatally flawed. Could you tell me where I went wrong please?
The only way to "truly be free" is to eat a shotgun, kid.

Not a recommendation, a warning.
A well yes. Suicide would remove all restrictions, mostly because we would cease to exist. I would contend that as we exist as human beings we are limited in some ways permanently and irreversibly. I might not be able to destroy an illusion of self, but I might be able to remove other illusions that cloud my perception.This is the freeing process I refer to.

When you say it is a warning, not a recommendation, do you mean that we shouldn't try to free ourselves from the aforementioned shackles.
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Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2012, 01:36:04 am »
There's been a lot of discussion on how well we can survive without all these limits, and the answer as far as any of us can tell is "not very well at all, thanks." You're not aware of the feeling of your tongue in your mouth until I mention it, the objects in your peripheral vision, the smell of your own socks, even though you are completely capable of noticing all of those things based on your physical limitations. Your brain needs filters, or you drown in excess, irrelevant information.

You said you wanted to be enlightened, well what the fuck does that mean to you anyway? You want to love your fellow man? Try watching the news and actually allowing yourself to feel the anguish of losing that many brothers and sisters every day.

I've been trying, poorly, to find the words to explain what I went and did to my sense of identity. I'm not doing that because I want to provide people with a roadmap to follow me to some higher state of being, but to warn everyone about the goddamn black ice on the road. You want to believe in things, so you're very open to all kinds of stuff right now, which makes you prone to every kind of bad thought running around the world. And if you don't have a self, and don't hold on to it, the world will eat you right up and there won't be anything left for the mirror to reflect any more.

There is nothing out there. This is your house.
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Freeky

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2012, 02:16:42 am »
He is talking about the argument that the instutitions that oppress us, The MachineTM et al, are just other people right?
What?

Quote
The only one who is really holding each of us back and limiting our freedom is ourselves.
Okay...

Quote
We give in to fear, hate, and ingrained assumptions and that is what stops us.
   
Maybe...

Quote
Internalization of petty external rules is the true source of individual oppression.

There's two ways I could go with this, and they both are "What???" but in different degrees of disbelief.
 
Quote
So if we abandoned our emotions, stoicism, if we rejected external restrictions, part of embracing nihilism, we could remove these limitations and truly be free.

Nobody said anything about rejecting their emotions, but self reflection, examining what a person believes, and deciding what is mostly outside influence based and what was outside social influence based and then further subjected to personal analysis, with an emphasis on discarding ideas the person doesn't actually like.

Minus the stuff that can't be gotten rid of by thinking happy thoughts, of course.

Quote
The proposed solution is social revolution but I am skeptical.

What?
If someone does the ďFine, youíre right, Iím clearly a terrible person, Iím Satan, Iím the worst person alive, I should just dieĒ thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Wolfgang Absolutus

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2012, 02:21:39 am »
Well if you put it then way then I guess it is clear to see. There is nothing to be done. I can accept that.

Enlightenment means moving to understand more than I do now. I move toward enlightenment all the time. Constructive discourse is one of the best methods, maybe only equaled by self-reflection.

As for the next part, I did want to love my fellow man unconditionally and do the whole jesus thing. This was of course just as I was coming out of the church. When I did that of course all it did was fill me with rage as I saw all the needless violence. Anytime I try to engage my emotions into any kind of thinking about how I want the world to be I end up either a benevolent dictator or radical anarchist hinging on voluntarism. I am not sure however after thinking logically that those are really great answers. So I tried disengaging my emotions and that led me partly to where I am now.

I've been trying, poorly, to find the words to explain what I went and did to my sense of identity. I'm not doing that because I want to provide people with a roadmap to follow me to some higher state of being, but to warn everyone about the goddamn black ice on the road.

I think maybe thats a fairly universal problem, at least for those who bother to think about this crap. I too am trying to find who I am if I am not any of the artificial crap society convinces me to pile in my apartment and shovels down my throat. Helping others in that manner is still noble I suppose.
You want to believe in things, so you're very open to all kinds of stuff right now, which makes you prone to every kind of bad thought running around the world. And if you don't have a self, and don't hold on to it, the world will eat you right up and there won't be anything left for the mirror to reflect any more.
There isn't any reason I should close out all the new things. Obviously I discriminate based on practicality, reasonability, and logical integrity; but I don't know that I could just stop examining new ideas as I hear them altogether. That would be the worst kind of hubris to say that these new ideas are not even worth my time. I would also clarify that I want to understand, not really to believe.
That last sentence is probably the most important though. I'm trying to find a self under all the garbage and rust. I won't survive if I don't. Or at least any sense of self won't survive. I would still physically exist as that guy with the shirt and tie. He does his work very well and always follows orders. 

Maybe the real point here is that there are no answers. What can one hope for? Nothing.

And of course this is my house. I can agree with that.
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Err. I guess I might not know what I'm talking about at all then. Let me try again.
The OP is saying that our oppression is caused by ourselves. I then say that the reason we oppress ourselves is due mostly to uncontrolled emotions and unrefined logical thinking. If we controlled our emotions and logicked (not-a-word) really well during self-reflection we could get out of our shackles( the social ones, not the biological ones). Social revolution would be if we all did this and we all got rid of our shackles. Unless the shackles aren't a problem in which case nothing I've mentioned is a solution and I don't actually know what I'm talking about at all.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:32:15 am by Wolfgang Absolutus »
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Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2012, 03:09:38 am »
There may be hope for you yet :)

To clarify: I was not saying that you should reject all outside ideas, just that you should also not accept all ideas blindly. Some perimeter defenses are mandatory for our mental health. Optimism and an open mind are not bad things, but they come with significant risks that we have to be aware of at all times.
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Wolfgang Absolutus

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2012, 03:16:11 am »
There may be hope for you yet :)

To clarify: I was not saying that you should reject all outside ideas, just that you should also not accept all ideas blindly. Some perimeter defenses are mandatory for our mental health. Optimism and an open mind are not bad things, but they come with significant risks that we have to be aware of at all times.
Can't disagree with that Freddie. Salud.
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Placid Dingo

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2012, 05:55:22 am »
You can also believe certain things about humans (for example the ideal of human rights) and accept that everyone deserves to be treated fairly and equally as a person without having to actually like them all.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

LMNO

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #53 on: February 29, 2012, 04:39:19 pm »
Handcuffs 2

Itís taken some digging, but I finally managed to grab that little fucker by the neck.  Self-destruction.  Itís something thatís been following me around for years, maybe even decades.  It hides in my shadow, stalking me, waiting for the moment when vigilance falls.

Too dramatic?  Then Iíll use my new favorite word to describe it: Akrasia.  The state of acting against oneís better judgment.  To act again oneís best interests.  To do what you know is wrong.  Wrong?  Not ďwrong in the eyes of society/law/godĒ but wrong like ďthis isnít what I want to do, but Iím doing it anyway.Ē  Itís not irrationality Ė sometimes, being irrational is the best thing you can do.  And itís not doing things you donít want to do but have to do.  Is it hypocrisy?  In some way, I suppose.  If someone was to comment on your behavior, they might use that wordÖ but it seems to me that hypocrisy has more of an implied deception to it, you know how youíre going to behave, but you speak cross-wise to it.

No, Akrasia is that troubling way that you find yourself, for example, opening another bottle of wine on Tuesday evening, and then you find yourself on the couch at 1:00 in the morning on your third bottle, knowing full well that the alarmís going to go off in four hours, and youíre meeting with the VP at 8:00.  Itís finding yourself shoving a handful of greasy Chinese food into your mouth when youíre thirty pounds overweight.  Itís doing too many shots at the bar when you know youíre going to be playing a show in an hour, and things are going to get sloppy.

This isnít just laziness, this isnít necessarily a Spider.  You know, deep in your guts, what the right thing to do is.  And you watch yourself doing the opposite.  And you find yourself unable to stop.  Itís not addiction, because itís not necessarily a drug, or a habitual behavior like gambling, or OCD.  Itís like part of your brain is taking over, while another part watches.  A part of your brain that is there to undermine you.  Itís the part that keeps you at home when you really should be going out.  Itís the part that keeps you out when you really should be going home. 

Itís not something that doesnít think of the consequences.  It knows the consequencesÖ In a way, it wants those consequences.  It moves ahead, knowing that itís fucking up the other brainís goals and desires Ė and itís that other brain that you consider ďyouĒ, or at least the ďyouĒ that you like best.

(Not to say that this is some sort of split-brain or schizophrenic tendency.  Itís only a metaphor.  Donít take it too literally.)

Maybe some of you will call this a lack of Will.  Maybe youíre right.  But it doesnít feel like that.  Itís not like you know what you need to do but say, Ďeh, fuck it.í  Youíre actively doing what you want to do, but itís either not doing you any favors, itís setting you up for failure, or itís simply going to fuck you up down the road.

Iíd like to say thereís a conclusion to all of this, that I found a way around or over it, but Iím still coming to terms that itís even there.  Iím in my own way, Iím tripping myself up.  And part of me wants that to happen, and I donít know why.


Freeky

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #54 on: February 29, 2012, 05:03:02 pm »
Oh, damn.  I know exactly what you're on about, LMNO.  Well said.
If someone does the ďFine, youíre right, Iím clearly a terrible person, Iím Satan, Iím the worst person alive, I should just dieĒ thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Freeky

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #55 on: February 29, 2012, 05:04:55 pm »
Sometimes its not even the thing you want to be doing, but you can't stop yourself, its like a reflexive action.  You can see it coming, and nothing you do can stop yourself from doing the exact wrong thing. 
If someone does the ďFine, youíre right, Iím clearly a terrible person, Iím Satan, Iím the worst person alive, I should just dieĒ thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Oysters Rockefeller

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #56 on: February 29, 2012, 06:50:09 pm »
This is pretty great stuff. I feel what you're talking about. I always kind of think of it as domestic addiction. Things that aren't considered really wrong, but you know it's not okay anyway. Chinese food was a really good example.
I think a good example we might overlook is our attitude to people in certain situations. For instance, I've had people I like say things I don't want to hear, for whatever reason, and been a dick about it. Whether they made a true statement or not, honest communication is good, and being a jackass creating causing. (destructive?) space in a relationship, not positive (creative?) space. It's instantly gratifying for people when they get to act out, but ultimately harmful.
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LuciferX

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2012, 08:13:02 am »
This is pretty great stuff... It's instantly gratifying for people when they get to act out, but ultimately harmful.
Is there a difference between necessity and desire?  I'd like to think so.
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Oysters Rockefeller

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2012, 01:17:11 pm »
This is pretty great stuff... It's instantly gratifying for people when they get to act out, but ultimately harmful.
Is there a difference between necessity and desire?  I'd like to think so.

Well, that blurb only applies within the context around it, but yes. There is a difference.
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LuciferX

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Re: Handcuffs
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2012, 01:53:45 am »
Handcuffs 2

Itís taken some digging, but I finally managed to grab that little fucker by the neck.  Self-destruction.  Itís something thatís been following me around for years, maybe even decades.  It hides in my shadow, stalking me, waiting for the moment when vigilance falls.

Too dramatic?  Then Iíll use my new favorite word to describe it: Akrasia.  The state of acting against oneís better judgment.  To act again oneís best interests.  To do what you know is wrong.  Wrong? 

...

This isnít just laziness, this isnít necessarily a Spider.  You know, deep in your guts, what the right thing to do is.  And you watch yourself doing the opposite.  And you find yourself unable to stop.  Itís not addiction, because itís not necessarily a drug, or a habitual behavior like gambling, or OCD.  Itís like part of your brain is taking over, while another part watches.  A part of your brain that is there to undermine you...

Iíd like to say thereís a conclusion to all of this, that I found a way around or over it, but Iím still coming to terms that itís even there.  Iím in my own way, Iím tripping myself up.  And part of me wants that to happen, and I donít know why.

One way I found helpful for articulating the above is positing a distinction between first and second order desires (there's an "ontics" paper somewhere out there on the subject).  Essentially, the first order is what you want, the second is what you want to want.  When these two are in disagreement, (self) destructive tendencies result.  Contradiction is somehow then a function of this ontic structure.  I think this stems from a more fundamental error of misidentification.

The subject identifies with it's purported causal efficacy by imposing artificial delimitations on the placement of choices.  I assume my involvement in effecting change is determined to the extent that I can efficaciously choose either/or, however, the error is to identify with the result of involvement instead of the involvement itself.  The conflict of identity is the product of thinking I can take sides on the issue instead of just being the possibility that makes an issue of itself.  I am in conflict with myself because I misread myself. (that, and the thread between my mittens)


Hic Salta?
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