Author Topic: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous  (Read 13597 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2012, 07:16:24 am »
Naw Rog. You totally get it. It's the world where words are more real than barstools, and can frighten monkeys into believing and doing stopid shit.


"...it is weightless, odorless, tasteless, and undetectable by ordinary instruments. ...it has been brought into existence by thought and does not exist outside of thought."


It's the world your assistant lives in, the reality tunnel built from manipulated misinformation, the world where what "What Gingrich/Santorum/Perry/Obama says makes sense, so let's let them handle it," the world where (if we chant it loudly enough) Anarchism, Libertarianism, or any other -ism will totally save all our problems so get on the wagon before we run you over, comrade....





That's it really. I think you haven't been there in a long, long time...

Oh, so the Chapel Perilous is the Machine? And the Spiders?

Actually, I think it's the part of the monkey that causes it to obey The Machine and the spiders.  Because it's easier than thinking.
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- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Telarus

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2012, 07:16:50 am »
Oh, so the Chapel Perilous is the Machine? And the Spiders?

And mistaking "the Cell" in the BIP for "the View from the Window"...
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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2012, 07:18:26 am »
Naw Rog. You totally get it. It's the world where words are more real than barstools, and can frighten monkeys into believing and doing stopid shit.


"...it is weightless, odorless, tasteless, and undetectable by ordinary instruments. ...it has been brought into existence by thought and does not exist outside of thought."


It's the world your assistant lives in, the reality tunnel built from manipulated misinformation, the world where what "What Gingrich/Santorum/Perry/Obama says makes sense, so let's let them handle it," the world where (if we chant it loudly enough) Anarchism, Libertarianism, or any other -ism will totally save all our problems so get on the wagon before we run you over, comrade....





That's it really. I think you haven't been there in a long, long time...

Oh, so the Chapel Perilous is the Machine? And the Spiders?

Actually, I think it's the part of the monkey that causes it to obey The Machine and the spiders.  Because it's easier than thinking.

Ohhhh... so it's the Comfort Zone?
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2012, 07:23:25 am »
All these are the Masks that the Chapel presents to us, even (as Rog said) pulling the wool over your own eyes, and we can all get lost in the realm where thoughts are more real than reality.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2012, 07:23:46 am »
Naw Rog. You totally get it. It's the world where words are more real than barstools, and can frighten monkeys into believing and doing stopid shit.


"...it is weightless, odorless, tasteless, and undetectable by ordinary instruments. ...it has been brought into existence by thought and does not exist outside of thought."


It's the world your assistant lives in, the reality tunnel built from manipulated misinformation, the world where what "What Gingrich/Santorum/Perry/Obama says makes sense, so let's let them handle it," the world where (if we chant it loudly enough) Anarchism, Libertarianism, or any other -ism will totally save all our problems so get on the wagon before we run you over, comrade....





That's it really. I think you haven't been there in a long, long time...

Oh, so the Chapel Perilous is the Machine? And the Spiders?

Actually, I think it's the part of the monkey that causes it to obey The Machine and the spiders.  Because it's easier than thinking.

Ohhhh... so it's the Comfort Zone?

I think you can be in a Comfort Zone and still be awake & aware (though it ain't easy).

Like I said last page, I THINK it's the world of DUMBASS.  The world of "I HAVE TO VOTE DEMOCRAT BECAUSE THE GOP IS WORSE", the world of "I DON'T WANT TO GET FELT UP AT THE AIRPORT, BUT WE HAVE TO BE SAFE", the world of "THIS IS ALL TOO COMPLICATED AND BORING.  I'LL JUST VOTE FOR THE ONE THAT PROMISES ME SOME EASY ANSWERS FOR ONCE".

MATH IS HARD!

I BETTER SETTLE FOR 2nd BEST BEFORE I GET STUCK WITH 3rd BEST.

I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

I CAN'T DO IT.

I WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT, BUT THE <white man/those damn Blacks/muzzies/wetbacks> ARE KEEPING ME DOWN.

I'D BE RICH, IF THE GOVERNMENT WOULD GET OUT OF THE WAY.

PEOPLE ALWAYS ACT IN THEIR OWN SELF INTEREST.

I NEED AN ISM.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2012, 07:24:36 am »
All these are the Masks that the Chapel presents to us, even (as Rog said) pulling the wool over your own eyes, and we can all get lost in the realm where thoughts are more real than reality.

FOR EXAMPLE:  We've been laughing at the monkeys here for YEARS, and all that time the monkeys have been sodomizing the living shit out of us.  And we call THEM the dumb ones.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2012, 07:46:21 am »
Naw Rog. You totally get it. It's the world where words are more real than barstools, and can frighten monkeys into believing and doing stopid shit.


"...it is weightless, odorless, tasteless, and undetectable by ordinary instruments. ...it has been brought into existence by thought and does not exist outside of thought."


It's the world your assistant lives in, the reality tunnel built from manipulated misinformation, the world where what "What Gingrich/Santorum/Perry/Obama says makes sense, so let's let them handle it," the world where (if we chant it loudly enough) Anarchism, Libertarianism, or any other -ism will totally save all our problems so get on the wagon before we run you over, comrade....





That's it really. I think you haven't been there in a long, long time...

Oh, so the Chapel Perilous is the Machine? And the Spiders?

Actually, I think it's the part of the monkey that causes it to obey The Machine and the spiders.  Because it's easier than thinking.

Ohhhh... so it's the Comfort Zone?

I think you can be in a Comfort Zone and still be awake & aware (though it ain't easy).

Like I said last page, I THINK it's the world of DUMBASS.  The world of "I HAVE TO VOTE DEMOCRAT BECAUSE THE GOP IS WORSE", the world of "I DON'T WANT TO GET FELT UP AT THE AIRPORT, BUT WE HAVE TO BE SAFE", the world of "THIS IS ALL TOO COMPLICATED AND BORING.  I'LL JUST VOTE FOR THE ONE THAT PROMISES ME SOME EASY ANSWERS FOR ONCE".

MATH IS HARD!

I BETTER SETTLE FOR 2nd BEST BEFORE I GET STUCK WITH 3rd BEST.

I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

I CAN'T DO IT.

I WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT, BUT THE <white man/those damn Blacks/muzzies/wetbacks> ARE KEEPING ME DOWN.

I'D BE RICH, IF THE GOVERNMENT WOULD GET OUT OF THE WAY.

PEOPLE ALWAYS ACT IN THEIR OWN SELF INTEREST.

I NEED AN ISM.

But isn't all of this action in pursuit of a comfort zone?
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2012, 07:50:31 am »
Yes, but a person could be all,  "Oh, what?  That sounds like bullshit.  That is some really horrible bullshit you have just poured in my ear.  -do a little reasearch-  That horrible bullshit is true.   :horrormirth: <--minus mirth 

I will not deny that this is a true thing, nor pretend it isn't out there, but I'm not going to think about it."

That last bit is remaining alert while staying in a comfort zone.
If someone does the Fine, youre right, Im clearly a terrible person, Im Satan, Im the worst person alive, I should just die thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2012, 08:59:35 am »
perhaps I was too high while reading Cosmic Trigger, but my understanding of RAWs concept of Chapel Perilous is quite different from that which is described in Ali's quote in the OP (so perhaps this isn't all that relevent)...

It was my understanding that Chapel Perilous was essentially the various states of upheaval that one enters when confronted by the inherent distortions of their model of reality. To enter Chapel Perilous is to be stripped of one's buffering framework through which reality is experienced/interpreted. I always thought that Chapel Perilous was analogous to horror, as described in the good Doktor's studies of Horrorlogy

I could be wrong.

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2012, 10:14:03 am »

It was my understanding that Chapel Perilous was essentially the various states of upheaval that one enters when confronted by the inherent distortions of their model of reality. To enter Chapel Perilous is to be stripped of one's buffering framework through which reality is experienced/interpreted. I always thought that Chapel Perilous was analogous to horror, as described in the good Doktor's studies of Horrorlogy

I could be wrong.

From my understanding, "Believing your perceptions(filtered)/thoughts ARE reality," is pretty much what you are describing. From RAW's author point-of-view, it seems that characters become aware that they dwell in Chapel Perilous when confronted by the gap between their model and reality in an unmistakable way. The normal reaction is Horror, which is why shamans/priests served a very useful role in tribal societies (to make sure the Horror isn't the only thing imprinted by the experience and to reintegrate this "new" personality who has seen the Void back into tribal consciousness).
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2012, 10:29:15 am »
Chapel Perilous is the point where you are confronted with the fact that your BiP cell:
A) exists
B) Isn't "objective" reality

I spent the first half of my life, believing (really really for real believing) that Jehovah was god, that JW's knew "the Truth". That man was 6000 years old, that evolution was a lie spread by demonic influence and that very very soon, Jehvah's angels would come and destroy all of the churches, governments, religions and bad people, leaving only good people to exist forever happily on Paradise Earth.

I could quote scriptures, discuss the theological basis for these beliefs and even gave 45 min Sunday morning sermons to hundreds of people on these topics.

That was my reality tunnel, my cell in the BiP. I believed it was objective truth.

Then a series of events happened that shook all of that loose. I lost my trust in the Governing Body, my trust in the Elders and my faith in Jehovah. I went from a sure, secure world view to nothing, I was completely lost. My whole life had been centered around Truth, that was now, not Truth.

The most horrifying thing that happened to me during this experience was the night I dreamed that I was old, alone and dying. Seems stupid now, but I'd never considered that I might grow old and die before that moment.

That was my first entrance into Chapel Perilous.

Once there, things got weird. I had an experience where I became the deity Therion, I had experiences where things that I couldn't see talked to me. Then I was given a copy of the PD and the humor, the complete absurdity, the telegram to Jehova, the beauty of the messages hidden in silly prose... gave me something to hang on to. After all, if what I KNEW to be true for 24 years was false, then why not accept a crazy woman as Goddess and roaches as messengers?

I think, Chapel Perilous isn't simply monkey mind antics, or comfort zones. Its when your whole understanding of existence gets tossed on its ear. If we use Joseph Campbell's ideas about mythology being a metaphor for human experience/growth. Chapel Perilous is the popular mythological spot where we go from the 'safe' world that the hero knows to the 'unsafe' world that the hero knows nothing of. In Star Wars, Luke's 'Chapel Perilous' is the Mos Eisley Cantina. He has left behind his farm and family... his 'reality' and is suddenly plunged into the world of light sabers, stormtroopers, weird aliens, strange music, dangers that he can't even begin to comprehend.

Luke could have run back home, like some people run from Chapel Perilous. Luke could have refused to go further out of fear... and stayed there, stuck as a bar back... never going further, never going back. Instead Luke braved Chapel Perilous and launched himself into a whole new concept of reality... a world where he he becomes a hero, where he risks his life for others, where he kisses a princess (ewww), where he comes to terms with this 'Force' that allows him to control his reality to some extent.

Chapel Perilous is just a literary device... a term for the point in time when you have to leave behind old ideas and accept new ones... or be stuck. Sure, theres a lot of other stuff we can throw in there (Holy Guardian Angels etc) but at its core, this is Chapel Perilous.

Hell, even Einstein got stuck in Chapel Perilous when he refused to budge on the topic and claimed "God does not play dice with the universe". His BiP cell was an ordered universe where some mathematical formula could finally explain EVERYTHING. When faced with evidence to the contrary, he ran from the Chapel, instead of plunging through the foyer. 

Its not simply refusing to accept new information... its when that information would impact your entire view of reality. If you accept it, you go through the Chapel, if you refuse it, you run from the Chapel... if you let it destroy you, you're trapped in the Chapel.
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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2012, 10:38:18 am »
Tosk, I think the only difference between your metaphor, and Antero's is that Antero is saying that you were in Chapel Perilous the whole time.. you just didn't realize it until the moment your reality tunnel cracked.
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Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2012, 10:49:20 am »
Well I think it depends... I can see that from this quote... but in reading through Angel Tech (and through Bob's stuff), I think the people who 'live there', the Lifers... aren't just the ones who have some belief system, but the ones whose belief system has been shattered and they can't get anywhere from there. They can't acknowledge that their reality was wrong. They can't accept the new reality. AND they can't really go back to their old one, because, deep down they know its wrong.

I think, if I were to map it out, I would say I was at the door of the Chapel for about a year. I started questioning behaviors of Elders, I started feeling weird about some of the things the religion claimed.

For decades JW's said that the people who were alive in 1914 were "this generation" that Jesus spoke of when he said "This generation will by no means pass away until all things are fulfilled". That is, Armageddon would come before they all died. Then a Watchtower article was published which said "Well, generation doesn't mean literal generation... it just means the attitudes of people". Within a few months it had become "Some people claimed that people alive in 1914 would live to see the end." (They don't even discuss it anymore now). That event was when I fell through the door. (IMO)
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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2012, 05:11:59 pm »
So using your metaphor for 'lifers,' Rat, how does Zen relate? The idea of "Above, not a tile to cover the head; Below, not an inch of ground for the foot." It looks like the Zen masters somehow find a home within Chapel Perilous?  Or is that the basic idea? Is living in pure spontaneity no difference than being a 'cool lifer,' so to speak?

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Re: Antero Ali on Chapel Perilous
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2012, 05:25:47 pm »
perhaps I was too high while reading Cosmic Trigger, but my understanding of RAWs concept of Chapel Perilous is quite different from that which is described in Ali's quote in the OP (so perhaps this isn't all that relevent)...

It was my understanding that Chapel Perilous was essentially the various states of upheaval that one enters when confronted by the inherent distortions of their model of reality. To enter Chapel Perilous is to be stripped of one's buffering framework through which reality is experienced/interpreted. I always thought that Chapel Perilous was analogous to horror, as described in the good Doktor's studies of Horrorlogy

I could be wrong.

So Chapel Perilous is the mental state we go through in realizing the Horrible Truth and beginning to see the world for what it is, rather than as the consensus reality?
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.