Author Topic: homeopathy - my take on it  (Read 6598 times)

holist

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homeopathy - my take on it
« on: January 08, 2012, 07:14:21 pm »
okay...

to some of you, i am afraid, this (apparently not entirely dumb fellow claiming to be a reasonable chap and a believer in homeopathy at the same time!) will sound like an impossible state of affairs and some of you will consider going to considerable length to show me the error of my ways

so let me be honest about this and say that practically nothing i can imagine happening on a bulletin board, be it of any distinction, is in the least bit likely to change my opinion about homeopathy, which i have come to appreciate, respect and occasionally use through an ongoing sequence of extremely interesting and often existentially decisive episodes, and which, in essence, has been a very useful minority-consensual reality tunnel for me to dip into, which, i would go as far as to say, captures something essential and vital about the majority-consensual reality tunnel (i don't just mean the consciously articulated part of it but also the whole shebang, collective unconscious and all).

on that basis i am offering to unfold my view of this discipline (which may or may not deserve the name science, depending on your definition) in a conversation

ask away or jump right in with the abuse and the criticism, it's open house

in the meantime, i will try to write some more by means of an opening speech as life sees fit
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

Golden Applesauce

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 07:47:58 pm »
Good luck with this thread.  That said, I suspect it will end up like: :punchballs: (why do we even have an emote for that !?)

Question #1 - what's the actual homeopathist's answer to the observation that if homeopathy worked, then ordinary ocean water would cure everything?
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Cain

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 07:58:13 pm »
so let me be honest about this and say that practically nothing i can imagine happening on a bulletin board, be it of any distinction, is in the least bit likely to change my opinion about homeopathy

So what's the point in discussing it, then?  If I want people who refused to be swayed by any amount of counterarguments and evidence, I'll just log onto the Rapture Ready Forums.
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Prince Glittersnatch III

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 08:06:10 pm »
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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 08:44:10 pm »
so let me be honest about this and say that practically nothing i can imagine happening on a bulletin board, be it of any distinction, is in the least bit likely to change my opinion about homeopathy

So what's the point in discussing it, then?  If I want people who refused to be swayed by any amount of counterarguments and evidence, I'll just log onto the Rapture Ready Forums.
This. What the fuck?
If you can't imagine anything that would change your mind, chances are you're being irrational.
So why should anyone bother discussing it with you? Are you intentionally setting yourself up to be an object of amusement? Because there is no other use for someone who admits to their unwillingness to consider challenges to their beliefs.

holist

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 09:04:44 pm »
dear Golden Applesauce,

i think the true homeopathick answer to that observation would be to say that it is an incorrect 'observation' not even worthy of the name: it is, rather, an expression of superficial prejudice based in a profoundly shallow misunderstanding of the principles and practices of homeopathy - in short, a manifestation of intellectual sloth

*

dear Cain,

the point firstly, is in the quality of the refusal to be swayed

people refusing to be swayed on 'Rapture Ready Forums' (not a locale i frequent) are boring, repetitive and ultimately quite depressing

i promise to refuse to be swayed in an entertaining fashion

secondly, the unexpected does happen - i could be swayed by something i am at present unable to imagine

thirdly, if you enter the discussion with the sole purpose of swaying me and winning - what is the point then?

i am offering to present and explain my perspective, preferably aided by intelligent and well-meaning criticism

*

dear Prince Glittersnatch III,

if i had wanted to argue with entire websites or articles on various science websites, i'd probably go there and do so in their face

so, in general, i will not argue with websites or long articles thrust in my face without provocation

also, my take on science could be summarised as follows:

"i'm all for the gadgetry, the religious aspect - less so"

and my take on Science(tm) - that is to say the majority view of what science is and what it does and how it does it amongst the largely hopelessly undereducated and intellectually lazy ideologues of science who crowd sorry places around the internet such as for instance the secular café(tm) - is that it is deeply harmful set of ideas that perpetrates well purely for superorganic/social evolutionary reasons, and whose pervasive, terrible effect in warping our society to the rather inhumane and unfortunate monstrosity it has become is yet to be mapped out in its full implications

having said that, i make an exception at this point and say something about the site you offered

the language is extremely vague ("the scientific evidence suggests that homeopathy is placebo effect, blah blah blah, no evidence offered"), so i clicked through to the actual report here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/45/45.pdf

pages 5 to 28 appear relevant from the table of contents

on page 5, two paragraphs purport to answer the question "What is homeopathy?"

they are laughable in the extreme - totally simplistic, missing the point entirely

they are a bit like a description of surgery as follows: "if a part of you is sick, them cut it off"

then, on page 7, we get this:

"Randomised Controlled Trials (RCTs) are the best way of determining whether a causeeffect relationship exists between a treatment and an outcome"

what is sorely missing here is: provided the constellation of definition of health and illness, diagnostic method and therapeutic actions is suitable for that sort of test

homeopathy isn't, because it is holistic medicine, even if it is practised by a whole bunch of quacks who don't really understand the deep, metaphysical tension between homeopathy and allopathy (many of them are in fact practising doctors, in most EU countries you need to be an MD to do homeopathy)

*

dear Beardman Meow

will you just hold them mutts for a goddamn minute??

*

any questions?
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 09:46:15 pm »
 :kingmeh:
Self-Propelled Ass Weasel Seek/Destroy Unit

Alty

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 10:03:35 pm »
Holist,

Would you care to explain why GA's question is based on a profoundly shallow misunderstanding or are you going to pontificate this thread in the ass, to death?
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Golden Applesauce

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 10:42:04 pm »
Holist,

Would you care to explain why GA's question is based on a profoundly shallow misunderstanding or are you going to pontificate this thread in the ass, to death?

He only said that the "true homeopathic" response would be to claim the other guy has a profoundly shallow misunderstanding.
This fits with the prevailing theory that that homeopathists only form of discussion is bullshitting
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Igor

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 10:56:29 pm »
Holist,

The problem in this thread is that most people here already have one understanding of homeopathy; highly dissolved stuff in water. This is why people's rebuttals to your position seem so out of place to you.

You seem to be using the word to mean something else. Perhaps if you first explained your undertanding of homeopathy and/or homeopathick principles, then we could have a fruitful discussion.
Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 11:01:11 pm »
In a related note, it would be wise to not use the "magickal" spelling, either. It does tend to put people here in the mindset that you are not to be taken seriously.

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 11:18:45 pm »
Speak for yourself. It puts me in the mindset to DANCE.
:noodledance:

SRSLY, though. We want to be extra sure to take SRS things like homeopathy SRSLY.

Wasn't that tongue-in-cheek?
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Prince Glittersnatch III

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2012, 11:50:49 pm »
dear Prince Glittersnatch III,

if i had wanted to argue with entire websites or articles on various science websites, i'd probably go there and do so in their face

so, in general, i will not argue with websites or long articles thrust in my face without provocation

also, my take on science could be summarised as follows:

"i'm all for the gadgetry, the religious aspect - less so"

and my take on Science(tm) - that is to say the majority view of what science is and what it does and how it does it amongst the largely hopelessly undereducated and intellectually lazy ideologues of science who crowd sorry places around the internet such as for instance the secular café(tm) - is that it is deeply harmful set of ideas that perpetrates well purely for superorganic/social evolutionary reasons, and whose pervasive, terrible effect in warping our society to the rather inhumane and unfortunate monstrosity it has become is yet to be mapped out in its full implications

having said that, i make an exception at this point and say something about the site you offered

the language is extremely vague ("the scientific evidence suggests that homeopathy is placebo effect, blah blah blah, no evidence offered"), so i clicked through to the actual report here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/45/45.pdf

pages 5 to 28 appear relevant from the table of contents

on page 5, two paragraphs purport to answer the question "What is homeopathy?"

they are laughable in the extreme - totally simplistic, missing the point entirely

they are a bit like a description of surgery as follows: "if a part of you is sick, them cut it off"

then, on page 7, we get this:

"Randomised Controlled Trials (RCTs) are the best way of determining whether a causeeffect relationship exists between a treatment and an outcome"

what is sorely missing here is: provided the constellation of definition of health and illness, diagnostic method and therapeutic actions is suitable for that sort of test

homeopathy isn't, because it is holistic medicine, even if it is practised by a whole bunch of quacks who don't really understand the deep, metaphysical tension between homeopathy and allopathy (many of them are in fact practising doctors, in most EU countries you need to be an MD to do homeopathy)


I spent like 5 minutes trying to mine some kind of meaning from this chunk of words.

I'm calling troll, no one this stupid could operate a computer.
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Glittersnatch would be a rather unfortunate condition, if a halfway decent troll name.

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ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S.

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2012, 12:16:13 am »
okay...

to some of you, i am afraid, this (apparently not entirely dumb fellow claiming to be a reasonable chap and a believer in homeopathy at the same time!) will sound like an impossible state of affairs and some of you will consider going to considerable length to show me the error of my ways

so let me be honest about this and say that practically nothing i can imagine happening on a bulletin board, be it of any distinction, is in the least bit likely to change my opinion about homeopathy, which i have come to appreciate, respect and occasionally use through an ongoing sequence of extremely interesting and often existentially decisive episodes, and which, in essence, has been a very useful minority-consensual reality tunnel for me to dip into, which, i would go as far as to say, captures something essential and vital about the majority-consensual reality tunnel (i don't just mean the consciously articulated part of it but also the whole shebang, collective unconscious and all).

on that basis i am offering to unfold my view of this discipline (which may or may not deserve the name science, depending on your definition) in a conversation

ask away or jump right in with the abuse and the criticism, it's open house

in the meantime, i will try to write some more by means of an opening speech as life sees fit

Generally I would jump right in and ask you to explain the ZANY principles of water having memory of a tiny speck of matter that is not even there after so many dilutions,

but I really don't care since you are completely unwilling to discuss this.

Therefore, two articles:


The discussion flowchart, to explain to you why no one will ever have a discussion with you about this.


And this.
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DISCLAIMER: While from this point on I take professional responsibility for any views expressed here under this name, any posts made before 20 DEC 2011 may not represent my professional views, and for these and any break from civility during my pseudannonymy, I beg your forgiveness. I cannot remake my past mistakes on the Internet, only plan better for the future; please do not take these against my character.

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2012, 12:40:51 am »
Dear holeist, please state the differences between homoeopathy and the placebo effect as I see none and science to date has seen none.
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