Author Topic: homeopathy - my take on it  (Read 6574 times)

Cain

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2012, 09:31:23 am »
OK, so how does homoepathic first aid work?

"I once, like, shook hands with a qualified first aider, and through universal genetic memory, can call upon his skills to save your life"?
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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2012, 11:02:50 am »
Homoeopathic first aid is the process of watching someone die whilst remaining wildly optimistic that they'll be okay.
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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2012, 11:39:10 am »
My grandmother is hugely into homeopathic and 'alternative' medicine. To the point that when she was suffering a very serious condition, she treated herself and through the magic of positive thinking and the placebo effect, made the pain go away. Hey, fantastic!

Except that the underlying condition was not treated, which she discovered when she suddenly collapsed in the kitchen and was rushed to an emergency ward. She very nearly died as her pancreas stopped functioning.

In other words; fuck you, my grandmother was (almost) killed by water with a a 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000 active ingredient ratio!
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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2012, 03:15:13 pm »
Yes, Roger, people really do believe this stuff.

I am so completely tired of the "I don't have to support my position except for ENERGY and QUANTUM" that is the chief peddle of woo-meisters everywhere.


If water remembers that it had a bit of garlic in it (as if it was some nebulous thing rather than a collection of interacting molecules of hydrogen and oxygen), even after 30 fold dilution, then it also remembers all the feces and urine it's had in it, as well as dead and decaying things, pathogens, parasites, toxins, heavy metals...yeah. Homeopathy is a hoax.

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2012, 06:01:53 pm »
Dear holist: 

Please define homeopathy[holist].  Since apparently your definition differs from the one found on Wikipedia and other websites, we cannot discuss your views on the matter until we get a clear understanding of the terms.
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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2012, 11:29:36 pm »
He's been online and hasn't said shit. He's trolling us.
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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2012, 12:24:06 am »
Frankly I'm kind of disappointed that he didn't do just that in the OP, as he led us to expect. And THEN start to half-assedly defend something that nobody was actually talking about since they couldn't have known what it was.

Fortunately I recently learned a new term to describe this phenomenon: Chapel Perilous.

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2012, 12:28:40 am »
He's been online and hasn't said shit. He's trolling us.

Gotta be.

Either that or he has abruptly discovered that the word homeopathy already has a fairly exact definition and the way he has been using it is incorrect, and hopes that we will all forget about it if he ignores this thread for long enough.
High Speed Proctoscope Pilot of Your Near and Painful Future.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”

“People get used to anything. The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free, you have to be acutely aware of being a slave.”
― Assata Shaku

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2012, 12:33:39 am »
Chapel Perilous.

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2012, 01:40:49 am »
Homoeopathic first aid is the process of watching someone die whilst remaining wildly optimistic that they'll be okay.

Wesley Crusher is a master.
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holist

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2012, 05:20:00 am »
okay, here goes:

developing an appreciation of homeopathy, in the sense that i am familiar with the term, is more like learning a foreign language, or getting into something sort of internally consistent but weird to the point of incomprehensibility from the outside

such things include the musings of the late Martin Heidegger or Ludwig Wittgenstein, 20th century atonal music, accupuncture, meditation, certain types of religious ideas, or pure maths

or, come to think of it, some forms of (psycho) therapy or counselling for which, science insists, there is no solid evidence, but which, practitioners insist, is still onto something essential about the nature of humans and hence profoundly interesting and worth doing

*

the experience i am talking about goes something like this:

1. come up against something that appears obviously intricate, complex, but totally pointless

2. begin suspecting that there may be something there

3. bang head against, ask existing practitioners how to get into this thing

4. get head around to some extent, become a novice practitioner

5. find it surprisingly and shamefully difficult to discuss the thing with people at point 1. above, beyond instructing them to go through the motions

at this point i suspect i have lost some of my audience because some of you have never had this experience and don't even believe in such experiences

it took me 19 years and some trippy higher maths before i understood what all of that was about

if you think that anything worth spending time on could be essentially explained to you in 15 minutes or so, then perhaps you'd best tune out, because, and i try to say this without a trace of condescension, you are not ready for what is coming

*

homeopathy is a system of thought, theory and practice of healing

its notions of what it means to be healthy, or not healthy, what it means to heal and what it means to have a theory are quite alien to modern-day institutional science in its ideal form as we know it

it is characterised by wild and creative theory-building (just like science)

it is boringly and trudgingly empirical (just like science)

it is riddled with bogus half-assed practitioners who don't understand the principles and get by somehow, often harming gullible patients by giving them bad advice (just like medical science)

it does differ from science in its standards of evidence and its modes of practice

it is consistently persecuted unfairly by Science(tm) the religious enterprise, which results in its own set of distortions and stresses

and yes, superdiluted substances and even imponderables are involved

*

the major differences relative to allopathic medical science: homeopathy is holistic and personal medicine

(in passing, a quote from the etymological dictionary, because words to have their way with us:

medical (adj.)
1640s, from Fr. médical, from L.L. medicalis "of a physician," from L. medicus "physician" (n.); "healing" (adj.), from mederi "to heal, give medical attention to, cure," originally "know the best course for," from an early specialization of the PIE base *med- "to measure, limit, consider, advise" (cf. Gk. medomai "be mindful of,"(...)

be mindful of! - this is sort of the sense still in use in homeopathy)

holistic and personal in that it considers the patients to be _persons_requesting_help_ rather than biological systems in need of repair or maintenance

holistic and personal in the sense also that it has a strong ethical dimension: as double-blind trials involve a degree of planned deception, many homeopaths would not consider doing them on ethical grounds

*

so how does it work? the knowledge generated to date by homeopathy is essentially a massive, sort of semi-regulated, but documented body of anecdotal evidence and various, not necessarily mutually consistent 'theories' (in a somewhat prescientific sense) about, on the one hand, remedies (the materia medica) and symptoms that people tend to have (the repertorium)

there is also an element of artistic, creative intuition involved, which we will find hard to deal with, i imagine

the theories and the anecdotal evidence (derived from 'provings' and from homeopathic practice itself) are all about the character, the individual essences that the remedies have (around 4000 today, and new ones are being added all the time)

when a patient turns up requesting treatment, the homeopath will conduct a long initial interview (hour to hour and a half), which, optimally, will cover pretty much all aspects of the patient's life inasmuch as that is possible in that sort of time frame

then the homeopath ponders carefully, selecting for the interesting, the unique, the striking among the things gleaned from the patient's ramblings, and attempts to figure out the remedy whose character is closest to the patients

then the homeopath will also ponder dosage (potency, frequency), and eventually prescribe a remedy

this remedy will be taken typically once or a small number of times, there will be frequent follow-ups, some of them involving possibly even longer conversations than the initial one

and this process brings surprising results

i don't claim to know how, but people with incurable diseases sometimes are cured (happens without homeopathy as well, as i am fully aware)

deeply interesting experiences of what i would call a spiritual or existential nature occasionally happen

people who are hostile to this sort of thing (experiences of the numenous and self-understanding as a profound and deeply moving process) are to a large extent the same people as those who choose to idolise Science(tm)

unpleasantness ensues

in the meantime, the state finances religious institutions, and a large number of other things for which there is no scientific justification (such as the the system of universal compulsory education, to mention only the most obviously un-scientific and harmful one)

but people prefer to cry and cuss about homeopathy instead

i think they are being intellectually dishonest

i think that the real source of the bitter sentiment that frothes forth at every opportunity is not charity or the need to protect reason (as if it needed protecting!)

i think it is closer to what the venerable Dr Reich got so irate about in Little Man

*

questions?
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

holist

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2012, 05:22:13 am »
Holist,

Would you care to explain why GA's question is based on a profoundly shallow misunderstanding or are you going to pontificate this thread in the ass, to death?

i think i have opted for the former, though possibly not in a manner satisfactory to you

sorry
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

holist

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2012, 05:24:37 am »
dear Prince Glittersnatch III,

if i had wanted to argue with entire websites or articles on various science websites, i'd probably go there and do so in their face

so, in general, i will not argue with websites or long articles thrust in my face without provocation

also, my take on science could be summarised as follows:

"i'm all for the gadgetry, the religious aspect - less so"

and my take on Science(tm) - that is to say the majority view of what science is and what it does and how it does it amongst the largely hopelessly undereducated and intellectually lazy ideologues of science who crowd sorry places around the internet such as for instance the secular café(tm) - is that it is deeply harmful set of ideas that perpetrates well purely for superorganic/social evolutionary reasons, and whose pervasive, terrible effect in warping our society to the rather inhumane and unfortunate monstrosity it has become is yet to be mapped out in its full implications

having said that, i make an exception at this point and say something about the site you offered

the language is extremely vague ("the scientific evidence suggests that homeopathy is placebo effect, blah blah blah, no evidence offered"), so i clicked through to the actual report here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/45/45.pdf

pages 5 to 28 appear relevant from the table of contents

on page 5, two paragraphs purport to answer the question "What is homeopathy?"

they are laughable in the extreme - totally simplistic, missing the point entirely

they are a bit like a description of surgery as follows: "if a part of you is sick, them cut it off"

then, on page 7, we get this:

"Randomised Controlled Trials (RCTs) are the best way of determining whether a causeeffect relationship exists between a treatment and an outcome"

what is sorely missing here is: provided the constellation of definition of health and illness, diagnostic method and therapeutic actions is suitable for that sort of test

homeopathy isn't, because it is holistic medicine, even if it is practised by a whole bunch of quacks who don't really understand the deep, metaphysical tension between homeopathy and allopathy (many of them are in fact practising doctors, in most EU countries you need to be an MD to do homeopathy)


I spent like 5 minutes trying to mine some kind of meaning from this chunk of words.

I'm calling troll, no one this stupid could operate a computer.

actually, sir, i am calling troll

more specifically, i assert that all three of the following statements cannot be true at the same time

1. you failed to mine some kind of meaning from my words

2. you were paying attention when you read them

3. your IQ is above 108

thank you
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

holist

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2012, 05:26:03 am »
okay...

to some of you, i am afraid, this (apparently not entirely dumb fellow claiming to be a reasonable chap and a believer in homeopathy at the same time!) will sound like an impossible state of affairs and some of you will consider going to considerable length to show me the error of my ways

so let me be honest about this and say that practically nothing i can imagine happening on a bulletin board, be it of any distinction, is in the least bit likely to change my opinion about homeopathy, which i have come to appreciate, respect and occasionally use through an ongoing sequence of extremely interesting and often existentially decisive episodes, and which, in essence, has been a very useful minority-consensual reality tunnel for me to dip into, which, i would go as far as to say, captures something essential and vital about the majority-consensual reality tunnel (i don't just mean the consciously articulated part of it but also the whole shebang, collective unconscious and all).

on that basis i am offering to unfold my view of this discipline (which may or may not deserve the name science, depending on your definition) in a conversation

ask away or jump right in with the abuse and the criticism, it's open house

in the meantime, i will try to write some more by means of an opening speech as life sees fit

Generally I would jump right in and ask you to explain the ZANY principles of water having memory of a tiny speck of matter that is not even there after so many dilutions,

but I really don't care since you are completely unwilling to discuss this.

Therefore, two articles:


The discussion flowchart, to explain to you why no one will ever have a discussion with you about this.


And this.

condescending, self-assured, lazy to the point of stupid - american? ;-)
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

holist

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Re: homeopathy - my take on it
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2012, 05:27:53 am »
Dear holeist, please state the differences between homoeopathy and the placebo effect as I see none and science to date has seen none.

if only it were that simple

the placebo effect is a scientific concept based on an allopatic understanding of humans

homeopathy is not

but this is of little help to you

however: would an internally consistent, highly intricate system that reliably elicited a strong placebo effect not be interesting in its own right? i mean to science?
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis