Common Walls Debate

[The Rev]

Roger, you win. See the lame joke in OKM.

This is just a fucking difference in opinions and I personally am fed up with all this stupid shit.

Fuck it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't see that anybody won.

[The Rev]

I don't see that anybody won.

Doesn't fucking matter to me anymore. I will never again participate in a group project. I will never again get tangled up in bullshit like this. PD loses.

[Misery's Fried Dough]

I think Net is the only one who's said that.  The others were defending the idea of someone taking control as editor, I think.  The idea, mind you.  The circumstances are a bit stickier than that.*

*my interpretation.

I only jumped in because I think Cram is getting a raw deal.  I think the guy just wanted to jump in and help, my reading of his posts was talking about getting a layout together that would be open-ended so new things could be incorporated.  I didn't read anything anywhere that implied he was going to take the whole thing over and do it all himself. 

The easy thing would've been to say, "No thanks Cram, we got it.", instead of "No Cram, you can't come in and take it over."  And then proceed to paint Cram as a thief which is what a few posts in this thread have done. 

Dude deserves more benefit of the doubt than that.

Yes, but think on these:

How many people are arguing or have argued in this thread, total? 

How many people actually argued that Cram was outright trying to take control, in a blatant fashion, with no nod to maybe it was just a misunderstanding? 

How many people are on one side of this debate, and how many are on the other side?  Who are the people on each side? 

What were the things said earlier, what is being said now, and how did it get from point A to point B?

All I know is I read a couple of posts that more or less accused Cram of trying to steal this project for his own, right after he said that he had interpreted it as a collaborative project.  And honestly, after going through the main thread again it isn't clear to me that any particular people were claiming ownership on the layout of the project, until the question actually came up. 

I mean, the way these things have happened before is that a thread like the main thread happens, and someone comes along and just puts it together.  That is how the BIP came together.  It wasn't like LMNO said at the beginning. "So guys, I'M going to put this stuff together when we're all done."  He just did it.  And thank fuck he did because it came out great!

That's why I say, at best, this was a misunderstanding that Cram was trying to take over.  But it gets a little too far, IMO, when people post things like, "and no you can't take it over."  It didn't have to get contentious. 

[Freeky Queen of DERP]

That may, but you can't say it wasn't a faux pas to suggest we do it right now before the project has even peaked.

But it gets a little too far, IMO, when people post things like, "and no you can't take it over."  It didn't have to get contentious.

As for this, it didn't get contentious until people started jumping on Nigel for it.  Cram could have taken it in stride, but instead said "excuse me?" (which strikes me more of someone who didn't expect someone to call him on his shenanigans rather than honest puzzlement).

And Nigel very clearly stated her reasons for saying what she did, in a calm manner, so it isn't like she started it.

[LMNO, PhD (life continues)]

Hey, everyone,

I think I need to apologize for the way this thread has gone.  I'm afraid I wasn't on the board when this started going down. If I had been, I would have answered in the same way:

That's still kinda not finished, isn't it?

Perhaps --- but I don't think anybody's gonna declare it "done". As soon as there've been no new submissions for a week, I'd say that's a good indicator that we're out of steam on it. Also, having a "first draft" pamphlet is often what we need to see what the project is missing.

Not to speak for Nigel, only for myself:  If you can leave it open ended, with the ability to add as much stuff as we want at any moment, why the hell not?  I'm not done with it, and I'm not going to stop until I think I've said my piece.  But if you want to keep adding onto whatever drafts you want to create, go for it.

I mean, after I had started the Spider Project, something like a dozen more pieces showed up; but I didn't declare them invalid.  The project simply grew.

For the record, I've worked with Cram on a few things, most notable the CTC, and even if our views on C(K)optright/Left don't always align, I never once thought he was hijacking or stealing ideas in the way that's been implied.  Part of his talent include layout and publishing, and I think he was simply eager to lend a hand in whatever way he could.

Also for the record: I consider Roger a friend; I consider Nigel a friend; I consider Freeky a friend; I consider Charley a friend; I consider 000 a friend; I consider WHN (formerly RWHN) a friend; and I consider Cram a friend.  I appreciate my friends speaking up when they think something odd is going on, and I appreciate my friends wanting to help move projects forward.

I truly regret any static that has occurred.

[Misery's Fried Dough]

Oh look who's trying to hijack this thread with his even-handed diplomacy!  Who do you think you are mister man???

[The Rev]

Hey, everyone,

I think I need to apologize for the way this thread has gone.  I'm afraid I wasn't on the board when this started going down. If I had been, I would have answered in the same way:

That's still kinda not finished, isn't it?

Perhaps --- but I don't think anybody's gonna declare it "done". As soon as there've been no new submissions for a week, I'd say that's a good indicator that we're out of steam on it. Also, having a "first draft" pamphlet is often what we need to see what the project is missing.

Not to speak for Nigel, only for myself:  If you can leave it open ended, with the ability to add as much stuff as we want at any moment, why the hell not?  I'm not done with it, and I'm not going to stop until I think I've said my piece.  But if you want to keep adding onto whatever drafts you want to create, go for it.

I mean, after I had started the Spider Project, something like a dozen more pieces showed up; but I didn't declare them invalid.  The project simply grew.

For the record, I've worked with Cram on a few things, most notable the CTC, and even if our views on C(K)optright/Left don't always align, I never once thought he was hijacking or stealing ideas in the way that's been implied.  Part of his talent include layout and publishing, and I think he was simply eager to lend a hand in whatever way he could.

Also for the record: I consider Roger a friend; I consider Nigel a friend; I consider Freeky a friend; I consider Charley a friend; I consider 000 a friend; I consider WHN (formerly RWHN) a friend; and I consider Cram a friend.  I appreciate my friends speaking up when they think something odd is going on, and I appreciate my friends wanting to help move projects forward.

I truly regret any static that has occurred.

Well said, and back at you as a friend. I'll be at the Bar, where the cool kids never go.

[Freeky Queen of DERP]

Oh look who's trying to hijack this thread with his even-handed diplomacy!  Who do you think you are mister man???

Let's string him up and leave him for the Dark Empress to play with.

 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well said, LMNO.  As far as I'm concerned, I have stated my position (my post at the bottom of the last page).  Argument's over, in my book.

[Cramulus]

selling copies of Intermittens (full of other people's work) for beer money.

that's never happened, btw

[M. Nigel Salt]

selling copies of Intermittens (full of other people's work) for beer money.

that's never happened, btw

I know it didn't happen, because there were pages and pages of very upset people pissed at you for saying you were going to do it, explaining to you why it would be wrong to do it, and explicitly stating that you did not have their permission to make money off of their work.

[Cramulus]

you're thinking of lysergic, who wanted to sell them at his friend's magazine stand in Melbourne

[M. Nigel Salt]

you're thinking of lysergic, who wanted to sell them at his friend's magazine stand in Melbourne

If I am mistaken about you saying you were going to sell copies of Intermittens, then I am truly very sorry, because I have based my reactions to you and avoidance of contributing to your projects entirely on behavior which I consider misappropriation, and that (along with reposting other people's writing without asking) is one of the occurrences that raised a red flag for me. If that wasn't you, and you never mentioned selling copies of Intermittens, I sincerely owe you a huge apology, because that's no minor accusation in my mind.

[Cramulus]

Thanks Nigel, I appreciate that.


eta: IIRC we did have some hot discussion about if/how to monetize Intermittens, and once we passed through the seasons of discord and confusion, the end result was agreement - ultimately, nobody would try to monetize or sell anything, and we'd all be really explicit about licenses so as to avoid future permissions issues.