Author Topic: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)  (Read 3934 times)

AFK

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2012, 03:53:34 pm »
Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked.

I'm going to argue that.  I think most teachers would be happy to not have that stuff.

School systems, on the other hand, are more concerned with standardized testing and low/no discipline incidents.

Right, which is precisely why even the school systems would rather not have to deal with that stuff.  It takes up valuable resources both human and fiscal.  I know they'd much rather have those man hours going into getting those test scores to go up.  It's the community that wants that stuff in the schools because the community doesn't want to have to deal with it.  They want schools to be parents, baby-sitters, etc. 

I don't envy School Superintendents one bit.  That's a completely thankless job.  Doesn't matter what you do, you are pissing someone off. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2012, 03:57:15 pm »
Nope, all of that stuff is here too.  I think most schools would be happy to NOT have to do that stuff.  It takes staff time and resources that could be better spent focusing on the fundamentals of education.  But at this point society expects schools to serve those functions.  I don't see it changing anytime soon.  Society needs to have its expectations around education reframed and reworked.

I'm going to argue that.  I think most teachers would be happy to not have that stuff.

School systems, on the other hand, are more concerned with standardized testing and low/no discipline incidents.

Right, which is precisely why even the school systems would rather not have to deal with that stuff.  It takes up valuable resources both human and fiscal.  I know they'd much rather have those man hours going into getting those test scores to go up.

Perhaps.  My experience says that this way is easier for them.

And as for the people actually mandating those tests, "teaching to the test" is not only acceptable, it's desireable.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2012, 04:12:44 pm »
4/10/12

Education, they tell us, is a sacred thing that should be denied to no child.  This is hardly a surprising attitude, when you consider that modern education is a vector by which they deliver the malady of subordination.

Make no mistake, the governments and corporations know they need some technical geeks, just to keep the lights on, etc.  The problem, however, is that educated people are hard to control unless you put the bridle on them first.  A highly educated man with a third of a million in debt coming out of the gate is much easier to deal with than one who comes out free and clear.

That much ought to be obvious...But let's look at children for a moment.  Children are subjected to, at their schools, 3 kinds of operant conditioning:

1.  Fear/obey authority:  THESE are the rules, and YOU will follow them.  K-12.  Leads to a lifetime of servile habits.

2.  Fall into the pecking order.  This used to be done by means of encouraging bullying.  It has, however, been found that simply ostracization functions BETTER when bullying has been removed from the table, as bullying creates multiple groups, which distracts from

3.  Encourage conformity.  Not in some eglatarian "we are all equal" sense, but to make people predictable.

When the above methods prove unworkable on a child, and that seems to be about 10-15% of the student body, why then we come to the problem of drugs in our schools.  For example, America consumes 90% of the world's Ritalin, and almost all of it is administered to male children between 6 and 12.  Keeps the little bastards quiet, and monkeys with their cognition.

How can a 6 year old have a diagnosable mental condition?  How can so many of them have these conditions?

Since they obviously can't, then the obvious question is "Why are they being drugged?"  The answer, of course, should be equally obvious.

And thus they manufacture the consent of the governed.

Okay for now.

Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”

“People get used to anything. The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free, you have to be acutely aware of being a slave.”
― Assata Shaku

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2012, 04:15:54 pm »
Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.

When I was in 5th grade, our teacher, Mr Wilson, said that if we had to go to the bathroom, just go.  No need to publicly ask permission.

He was reprimanded, for undermining his authority as a teacher, and the authority of other teachers.

The reprimanded was conducted in front of the class.

That was an interesting lesson in what school is actually for, from a 5th grader's perspective.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2012, 04:30:04 pm »
Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.

When I was in 5th grade, our teacher, Mr Wilson, said that if we had to go to the bathroom, just go.  No need to publicly ask permission.

He was reprimanded, for undermining his authority as a teacher, and the authority of other teachers.

The reprimanded was conducted in front of the class.

That was an interesting lesson in what school is actually for, from a 5th grader's perspective.

YEP.

It's getting worse. Not to sound all rah-rah freshman but one of the papers I had to write last term was about indoctrination in schools; I don't know whether it's comforting (because it's being recognized) or alarming (because it's recognized, and yet getting worse) but sociology textbooks and films recognize and examine the problem in very similar terms to the ones you've used.

A a matter of fact, of I didn't know better I'd suspect that PD.com is writing the sociology textbooks.  :lulz:

Good teachers are being weeded out by a bad system, sadly.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”

“People get used to anything. The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free, you have to be acutely aware of being a slave.”
― Assata Shaku

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2012, 04:31:01 pm »
Quote
Public school teachers are in much the same position as prison wardens. Wardens' main concern is to keep the prisoners on the premises. They also need to keep them fed, and as far as possible prevent them from killing one another. Beyond that, they want to have as little to do with the prisoners as possible, so they leave them to create whatever social organization they want. From what I've read, the society that the prisoners create is warped, savage, and pervasive, and it is no fun to be at the bottom of it.

From Paul Greham's essay Why Nerds are Unpopular.
That essay is a little long and rather unfocused, but it's very interesting and I think it makes some very good points about the goals and incentives in education.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2012, 04:40:01 pm »
Oh holy shit, as a parent of three kids in the school system, I agree completely. Completely. Especially seeing what happened to my son last year after he was sorted into the "troublemaker" category for such egregious offenses as leaving his seat while the teacher was speaking, and walking out of the classroom. Once a kid has been labeled "problem kid", it's almost impossible to get them re-labeled as a "good kid" or "smart kid". It took a lot of persuasive power and talking to the right people to get him relabeled as a "sensitive and depressed kid", which is something I can work with.

Don't even think for a moment kids are going through school without labels. And, don't underestimate the influence public schools have on who ends up in jail.

When I was in 5th grade, our teacher, Mr Wilson, said that if we had to go to the bathroom, just go.  No need to publicly ask permission.

He was reprimanded, for undermining his authority as a teacher, and the authority of other teachers.

The reprimanded was conducted in front of the class.

That was an interesting lesson in what school is actually for, from a 5th grader's perspective.

YEP.

It's getting worse. Not to sound all rah-rah freshman but one of the papers I had to write last term was about indoctrination in schools; I don't know whether it's comforting (because it's being recognized) or alarming (because it's recognized, and yet getting worse) but sociology textbooks and films recognize and examine the problem in very similar terms to the ones you've used.

A a matter of fact, of I didn't know better I'd suspect that PD.com is writing the sociology textbooks.  :lulz:

Good teachers are being weeded out by a bad system, sadly.

You've heard the expressions "Knowing is half the battle", and "Admitting there's a problem is the first step to fixing it"?

Well, given American society, that's when you stop.  Forget the other half of the battle, or the other steps needed, that sounds like way too much trouble.  We KNOW there's something wrong.  Someone will fix it; whomever is running the train will make the corrections.  I'm just "getting the word out".
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

AFK

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2012, 04:59:25 pm »
The problem is that American Society is conditioned to ONLY look at short-term goals. 

So for education that is churning out diplomas and getting kids into college.

America doesn't have the patience, nor the stomach, for looking at the medium and long term.

If it did, it would realize that the system has been conditioned to a point where it is manufacturing failure.  It is setting up false expectations.  It has woven this myth that, "if you just graduate high school, you'll make it"

And the pile of rudderless, unemployed 18-25 year olds continues to grow.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2012, 05:12:35 pm »
The problem is that American Society is conditioned to ONLY look at short-term goals. 

Actually, what I've seen is that American society has been conditioned to think there are easy answers to complex issues, if only "those damn politicians" would get out of the way.

Example:  A college degree.  This is supposed to guarantee you prosperity, but is an expensive investment, beyond the mode income level of the USA.  And as you say, Americans think short term...We've been actively conditioned to be that way1.  So the easy answer is a student loan, right?  Only now you're in debt til you retire...So, so much for prosperity.

This is, of course, intentional.


1 One example of this conditioning is that the mean time between commercials on TV and radio has shrunk by about 30% over the last 20 years, small increments at a time.


"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2012, 05:42:39 pm »
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

So according to article VI, we can do anything we goddamn please.
To bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  :horrormirth:
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Doktor Howl

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2012, 05:43:20 pm »
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

So according to article VI, we can do anything we goddamn please.
To bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  :horrormirth:

Um, no.  According to article VI, you have to obey federal law.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2012, 05:50:35 pm »
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.

THIS. Not going to tell the "I don't know who this Jim Crow guy is, but it's not her place to speak" story again.

And everybody seems to swallow the bullshit that uniforms are somehow going to make the kids forget who's rich and who's poor.
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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2012, 05:55:38 pm »
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.

THIS. Not going to tell the "I don't know who this Jim Crow guy is, but it's not her place to speak" story again.

And everybody seems to swallow the bullshit that uniforms are somehow going to make the kids forget who's rich and who's poor.

Despite recent mouthing to the contrary, that is not and has never been the reasons for school uniforms.
"Man, there's nothin' to do in this stupid town rope swing's busted, stinking cops always kicking me out of the park manager of the 7-11 always says "get off my curb you good for nothing" all the girls already know I'm a bad kisser so they don't come anywhere near me I don't know how many times I've been to TGIF a kid can eat an onion bloom only so many times bowling's boring, the skating rink's been taken over by 12 year olds there ain't no good movies out, blockbuster never has any good games in I don't want to play Bombad Racing, I mean what the heck is that? I'm sick of all my records and every time I walk into a record store, I forget what I want to get and their ain't nothing on TV, not a stupid thing! There ain't nothing to do 'cept take naps and wait patiently for death!"
- Brak

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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2012, 05:57:04 pm »
Think about this, for just a moment:  If the US government is no longer bound by the US constitution in any meaningful way, why are you?

What parts of the US Constitution would I have been bound to? The only bits I know of deal with how the government works, and how it is limited from interfering with a citizen's life.

You are required to:

1.  Answer the draft.
2.  Sit on a jury.
3.  Pay taxes.

You are also, by implication - and this is the important part - obey federal laws as passed by congress, in precisely the same manner the government "must" obey the constitution.  It's right there in black & white, in article VI.

So according to article VI, we can do anything we goddamn please.
To bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  :horrormirth:

Um, no.  According to article VI, you have to obey federal law.

Yes, that's what it says.
But in the same manner as the government "must" obey the constitution? Sounds like a lot of leeway...on paper, anyway.
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Re: Notes on the current state of being (ongoing thread, comments okay)
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2012, 06:00:11 pm »
I don't know... I was pretty wary of the principal and the teachers.  I had fear of getting "into trouble".  Sure there a lot of bluster and bravado on the outside, but in my school there were a very few kids who honestly didn't care about the school's authority.

Maybe, but I still think based on my experiences working in schools, on a comparative basis, there is more pressure to conform to peers then there is to authority.

In my experience as an involved parent, I see a great deal of imposed authority.  Dress codes that have nothing to do with "decency", "Respect" rules that allow a teacher to punish someone who points out an error in the lesson, etc.

THIS. Not going to tell the "I don't know who this Jim Crow guy is, but it's not her place to speak" story again.

And everybody seems to swallow the bullshit that uniforms are somehow going to make the kids forget who's rich and who's poor.

Despite recent mouthing to the contrary, that is not and has never been the reasons for school uniforms.

True, it's about conditioning them to be good WalMartTM workers.
And making parents buy twice as many clothes.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division