Lockers and school and drugs and drugs and drugs

[Misery's Feed Trough]

The reality is, with as many people as we have on this planet, public safety by its very nature is going to require us giving up some of our privacy and freedom.

Then to hell with public safety.

Yeah that's the part of the maze where you stop, turn around, and find a different way because that one leads to Bad Town, USA.

Wait, shit, you mean we have to give up more than we already have. RWHN, you're advocating since there's no way to get around that "nature of public safety" that we should accept giving up freedom as the right thing to do? I just want to be sure I'm reading that right.

Im saying you fundamentally cannot have any kind of entity in charge of maintaining public safety and expect that you can maintain  absolute and unfettered freedom.  There has to be a compromise somewhere, and that is where the debate happens and where the continuous discussion and calibrating occurrs.

[Alty]

The reality is, with as many people as we have on this planet, public safety by its very nature is going to require us giving up some of our privacy and freedom.

Then to hell with public safety.

Yeah that's the part of the maze where you stop, turn around, and find a different way because that one leads to Bad Town, USA.

Wait, shit, you mean we have to give up more than we already have. RWHN, you're advocating since there's no way to get around that "nature of public safety" that we should accept giving up freedom as the right thing to do? I just want to be sure I'm reading that right.

Im saying you fundamentally cannot have any kind of entity in charge of maintaining public safety and expect that you can maintain  absolute and unfettered freedom.  There has to be a compromise somewhere, and that is where the debate happens and where the continuous discussion and calibrating occurrs.

On that makes sense. Like MPH on the highway. Ok. Thanks.

[Doktor Howl]

Im saying you fundamentally cannot have any kind of entity in charge of maintaining public safety and expect that you can maintain  absolute and unfettered freedom.  There has to be a compromise somewhere, and that is where the debate happens and where the continuous discussion and calibrating occurrs.

There doesn't seem to be much compromise.  Anything that would vaguely resemble 4th amendment rights - just for one example - go right out the window just as soon as someone says "terrorism" or "drugs" or "do it for the children".

It's all safety Nazi, no freedom these days.  I don't consider it an improvement, and I wonder who will keep me safe from the people who want to "keep me safe".

[Misery's Feed Trough]

The reality is, with as many people as we have on this planet, public safety by its very nature is going to require us giving up some of our privacy and freedom.

Then to hell with public safety.

Yeah that's the part of the maze where you stop, turn around, and find a different way because that one leads to Bad Town, USA.

Wait, shit, you mean we have to give up more than we already have. RWHN, you're advocating since there's no way to get around that "nature of public safety" that we should accept giving up freedom as the right thing to do? I just want to be sure I'm reading that right.

Im saying you fundamentally cannot have any kind of entity in charge of maintaining public safety and expect that you can maintain  absolute and unfettered freedom.  There has to be a compromise somewhere, and that is where the debate happens and where the continuous discussion and calibrating occurrs.

On that makes sense. Like MPH on the highway. Ok. Thanks.

Kinda.  In a perfect world we would be able to maintain public safety and not have to give up an iota of privacy and freedom.  I don't see how that is possible in the real world.  Given that, we have the continued public debate of where the line should be at any point in time. 

[Misery's Feed Trough]

Im saying you fundamentally cannot have any kind of entity in charge of maintaining public safety and expect that you can maintain  absolute and unfettered freedom.  There has to be a compromise somewhere, and that is where the debate happens and where the continuous discussion and calibrating occurrs.

There doesn't seem to be much compromise.  Anything that would vaguely resemble 4th amendment rights - just for one example - go right out the window just as soon as someone says "terrorism" or "drugs" or "do it for the children".

It's all safety Nazi, no freedom these days.  I don't consider it an improvement, and I wonder who will keep me safe from the people who want to "keep me safe".

Well, in my experience, Superintendents and building administrators who go out of bounds end up on their ass after the school board removes them from their job.  School boards tend to be very sensitive about public perception.  If a building administrator wasn't administering a safety protocol in a fair and equitable manner, there are mechanisms for righting that wrong.  If you have an unresponsive school board, elect a non-shitty school board, or at least, more non-shitty school board members. 
 
It can be policed by the public if the public decides to police it. 

[Doktor Howl]

The reality is, with as many people as we have on this planet, public safety by its very nature is going to require us giving up some of our privacy and freedom.

Then to hell with public safety.

Yeah that's the part of the maze where you stop, turn around, and find a different way because that one leads to Bad Town, USA.

Wait, shit, you mean we have to give up more than we already have. RWHN, you're advocating since there's no way to get around that "nature of public safety" that we should accept giving up freedom as the right thing to do? I just want to be sure I'm reading that right.

Im saying you fundamentally cannot have any kind of entity in charge of maintaining public safety and expect that you can maintain  absolute and unfettered freedom.  There has to be a compromise somewhere, and that is where the debate happens and where the continuous discussion and calibrating occurrs.

On that makes sense. Like MPH on the highway. Ok. Thanks.

Kinda.  In a perfect world we would be able to maintain public safety and not have to give up an iota of privacy and freedom.  I don't see how that is possible in the real world.  Given that, we have the continued public debate of where the line should be at any point in time.

There is no line.  What the police, etc, want, they get.  What you and I get to do is stand there and take it.

And maybe make excuses for it, like that it's the only possible option, etc.

[Doktor Howl]

Im saying you fundamentally cannot have any kind of entity in charge of maintaining public safety and expect that you can maintain  absolute and unfettered freedom.  There has to be a compromise somewhere, and that is where the debate happens and where the continuous discussion and calibrating occurrs.

There doesn't seem to be much compromise.  Anything that would vaguely resemble 4th amendment rights - just for one example - go right out the window just as soon as someone says "terrorism" or "drugs" or "do it for the children".

It's all safety Nazi, no freedom these days.  I don't consider it an improvement, and I wonder who will keep me safe from the people who want to "keep me safe".

Well, in my experience, Superintendents and building administrators who go out of bounds end up on their ass after the school board removes them from their job.  School boards tend to be very sensitive about public perception.  If a building administrator wasn't administering a safety protocol in a fair and equitable manner, there are mechanisms for righting that wrong.  If you have an unresponsive school board, elect a non-shitty school board, or at least, more non-shitty school board members. 
 
It can be policed by the public if the public decides to police it.

Yeah, I was just searching for an example of an Arizona school official that got canned for excessive intrusion into a student's privacy rights.  Can't seem to find an example.

You have any actual examples in Maine?

And if the public decides to police it, the public gets a knot on the head and a prison sentence.  Or maybe not.  Maybe they just get ignored.  Rant all you like, just not on our networks.

[Misery's Feed Trough]

There is no line.  What the police, etc, want, they get.  What you and I get to do is stand there and take it.

And maybe make excuses for it, like that it's the only possible option, etc.

Well, I can tell you with great certainty that the police don't get what they want.  Tangentially, I can tell you they didn't get what they wanted regarding our medical marijuana laws, which was an enforceable law, but that's another topic.
 
There most certainly are lines and they are decided through policy making.  Perhaps if more of the public got involved in the public policy process that process would be more responsive to the public.  If the majority of the public of any particular community wants students to have unfettered privacy and protection from having their lockers searched, they need to get off their asses and ensure that their school board and local government codifies that. 

[Doktor Howl]

There is no line.  What the police, etc, want, they get.  What you and I get to do is stand there and take it.

And maybe make excuses for it, like that it's the only possible option, etc.

Well, I can tell you with great certainty that the police don't get what they want.  Tangentially, I can tell you they didn't get what they wanted regarding our medical marijuana laws, which was an enforceable law, but that's another topic.
 
There most certainly are lines and they are decided through policy making.  Perhaps if more of the public got involved in the public policy process that process would be more responsive to the public.  If the majority of the public of any particular community wants students to have unfettered privacy and protection from having their lockers searched, they need to get off their asses and ensure that their school board and local government codifies that.

And they'll just walk right around the regulations.  It's what they do.

[Doktor Howl]

A year or so ago, my son and his friends - all of them clean-cut gym rats waiting to go into the Marines - got pulled over driving my Jeep.  The cop "thought he smelled pot", which is fucking ridiculous, and had a good old time searching them and the car about a block away from their school.  Tore the shit out of the Jeep's interior, and made good and sure to humiliate the kids in front of the school.

The police department very politely told me and the parents of the other boys to shit in our hats, that the officer in question was just trying to make sure the area remained drug-free.

Payback was had against this fucking yokel, but it wasn't done through the system.  The good news is, my son and his friends got a first-rate education in what police are, and what the system is, without actually having to pay for it the hard way.  Never trust a cop, and never trust anyone who says he's in it for your own good.  Fortunately, they are quick studies, and all of them did wind up going into the service, where you DO have some rights left.

[Misery's Feed Trough]

There is no line.  What the police, etc, want, they get.  What you and I get to do is stand there and take it.

And maybe make excuses for it, like that it's the only possible option, etc.

Well, I can tell you with great certainty that the police don't get what they want.  Tangentially, I can tell you they didn't get what they wanted regarding our medical marijuana laws, which was an enforceable law, but that's another topic.
 
There most certainly are lines and they are decided through policy making.  Perhaps if more of the public got involved in the public policy process that process would be more responsive to the public.  If the majority of the public of any particular community wants students to have unfettered privacy and protection from having their lockers searched, they need to get off their asses and ensure that their school board and local government codifies that.

And they'll just walk right around the regulations.  It's what they do.

Sure, some of them will.

[Doktor Howl]

There is no line.  What the police, etc, want, they get.  What you and I get to do is stand there and take it.

And maybe make excuses for it, like that it's the only possible option, etc.

Well, I can tell you with great certainty that the police don't get what they want.  Tangentially, I can tell you they didn't get what they wanted regarding our medical marijuana laws, which was an enforceable law, but that's another topic.
 
There most certainly are lines and they are decided through policy making.  Perhaps if more of the public got involved in the public policy process that process would be more responsive to the public.  If the majority of the public of any particular community wants students to have unfettered privacy and protection from having their lockers searched, they need to get off their asses and ensure that their school board and local government codifies that.

And they'll just walk right around the regulations.  It's what they do.

Sure, some of them will.

It's how you bet.

[Misery's Feed Trough]

A year or so ago, my son and his friends - all of them clean-cut gym rats waiting to go into the Marines - got pulled over driving my Jeep.  The cop "thought he smelled pot", which is fucking ridiculous, and had a good old time searching them and the car about a block away from their school.  Tore the shit out of the Jeep's interior, and made good and sure to humiliate the kids in front of the school.

The police department very politely told me and the parents of the other boys to shit in our hats, that the officer in question was just trying to make sure the area remained drug-free.

Payback was had against this fucking yokel, but it wasn't done through the system.  The good news is, my son and his friends got a first-rate education in what police are, and what the system is, without actually having to pay for it the hard way.  Never trust a cop, and never trust anyone who says he's in it for your own good.  Fortunately, they are quick studies, and all of them did wind up going into the service, where you DO have some rights left.

Im not going to argue that there aren't bad cops, hell they just arrested and canned one locally who threw his girlfriend's head through a car window.  Arrested by his own, by the way.  But I won't go along with the idea that they are all bad.  I work with some first-rate guys who won't put up with that kind of shit that you described.  I don't believe cops would get away with that kind of shit here.  The public pressure for action would be huge here.

[Doktor Howl]

A year or so ago, my son and his friends - all of them clean-cut gym rats waiting to go into the Marines - got pulled over driving my Jeep.  The cop "thought he smelled pot", which is fucking ridiculous, and had a good old time searching them and the car about a block away from their school.  Tore the shit out of the Jeep's interior, and made good and sure to humiliate the kids in front of the school.

The police department very politely told me and the parents of the other boys to shit in our hats, that the officer in question was just trying to make sure the area remained drug-free.

Payback was had against this fucking yokel, but it wasn't done through the system.  The good news is, my son and his friends got a first-rate education in what police are, and what the system is, without actually having to pay for it the hard way.  Never trust a cop, and never trust anyone who says he's in it for your own good.  Fortunately, they are quick studies, and all of them did wind up going into the service, where you DO have some rights left.

Im not going to argue that there aren't bad cops, hell they just arrested and canned one locally who threw his girlfriend's head through a car window.  Arrested by his own, by the way.  But I won't go along with the idea that they are all bad.  I work with some first-rate guys who won't put up with that kind of shit that you described.  I don't believe cops would get away with that kind of shit here.  The public pressure for action would be huge here.

I'm going to argue, based on personal work experience, that 80% of them are complete shitnecks.

[stelz]

No, I'm simply laying down the bottom line which is that school administration has many duties in their roles.  Safety is one but they also have to consider the outcomes of their actions (or inaction).  I mean, it's an extreme example, but if a kid was hiding a gun in his locker, the buidling administrator had the ability but didn't search the locker after hearing suspicion that he had a gun, kid then goes and shoots and kills some kids...it's that administrator's head that's on the block.  And so this is obviously a critical piece of what would fuel whether or not schools institute protocols around searching lockers.

Teacher/principal/building adminitrator/whatever =/= "cop".

And things worked a lot better when cops had to have probable cause. 

Why should these kids respect anything or anybody? It's not being modeled. "Nobody does it".

Yeah, I was just searching for an example of an Arizona school official that got canned for excessive intrusion into a student's privacy rights.  Can't seem to find an example.

You have any actual examples in Maine?

And if the public decides to police it, the public gets a knot on the head and a prison sentence.  Or maybe not.  Maybe they just get ignored.  Rant all you like, just not on our networks.

Exactly.

That and the bit about who's going to protect us from the people who are supposed to be "protecting" us.

Funny how so much damage gets done by the school employees compared to the kids they labeled "dangerous" and had charged with "felonies". I knew a lot of kids like that. They'd come to the house and visit with my kids. I tutored one when she got kicked out of school for "assaulting a police officer". (He had her pinned in such a way that it hurt and when she was thrashing around, she accidentally broke his nose. I never antagonized her and fucked with her until she lost it the way the teachers do as SOP, so no reason to call the cops to come pin her down.) I never had trouble with any of them. Nothing even went missing when they were here.