Author Topic: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement  (Read 6676 times)

Placid Dingo

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2012, 11:51:48 am »
I'm pretty sure there'd be plenty of female equivalents out there.

Nome off the top of my head. Actually mentioning Hugh Grant I thought of 2 Weeks notice, and Bullocks character does a similar thing which I think is typical of the female equivalent; instead of bein silly and smug she's hardworkin, determined and too serious, until she learns to lighten up. Not sure. Will think on it.

Edit: OK. I have this and this.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 12:16:39 pm by Placid Dingo »
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2012, 03:12:51 pm »
I'm pretty sure there'd be plenty of female equivalents out there.

Nome off the top of my head. Actually mentioning Hugh Grant I thought of 2 Weeks notice, and Bullocks character does a similar thing which I think is typical of the female equivalent; instead of bein silly and smug she's hardworkin, determined and too serious, until she learns to lighten up. Not sure. Will think on it.

Edit: OK. I have this and this.

Actually they both look pretty fucked up.

The first one looks like a variation of "smart girls get the guy because they withhold sex - the ones who don't are just stupid whores and they don't mean anything".

The second one implies that polyamorous people can't have REAL feelings.
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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2012, 11:34:48 pm »
is there a name for this trope on TV Tropes at all? If you are refererring to particular films, can you list them so I can figure out the common trope?

Although it is male-focused, it's still a pretty positive (from a feminist viewpoint) trope of maturation.

"About A Boy" was the first time I put my finger on it, which is why I named it "The Hugh Grant". I know I've seen him in that scenario more than once. "Failure to Launch" is another right off the top of my head. Sometimes it's a case of the dude needing to grow up and settle down, other time, like in "Failure to Launch" they need to grow up and get over it...but always...the implication is "maturity" = "monogamy". That gets under my skin a shit load. My process of maturation only came when I said that I don't really need to have another half to be whole (minus the holes, of course). But that's a trope you'll see applied to women a lot, and it's a very positive one for a lot of people, but I have never, not once, seen it applied to men.

How about, single, handsome, carefree dude gets a ton of shit from all his friends and family and society and stupid fucking Hugh Grant movies and he starts to cave so he "guesses it's time to grow up" and meets someone he reasonably thinks he can live that sort of life with and they fall in love and go through the motions, but he has to find the strength to admit that they want wholly different things out of life, so he goes nuts wrestling with the decision but learns to let go...despite how heart-breaking it is for him? That model is MIA...and it kind of fucking annoys me.
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Placid Dingo

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #123 on: June 19, 2012, 12:33:28 am »
I think, using the stuff Burns added, it's a good example of a trope to do with the lovers journey, from 'Addicted Lover' to 'Lover in their fullness'.

I'm not sure how you ended up with those interpretations; the first isn't about dating strategy, it's about falling for someone because they don't immediately fall for you like everyone else does; like Mr Darcy in P&P, or the female example is Emma and Mr Knightly in Austin's Emma. No sex there.

Also the second concerns the real feelings of people who generally aren't poli, so I'm really not sure where that interpretation came from.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2012, 12:47:29 am »
I think, using the stuff Burns added, it's a good example of a trope to do with the lovers journey, from 'Addicted Lover' to 'Lover in their fullness'.

I'm not sure how you ended up with those interpretations; the first isn't about dating strategy, it's about falling for someone because they don't immediately fall for you like everyone else does; like Mr Darcy in P&P, or the female example is Emma and Mr Knightly in Austin's Emma. No sex there.

Also the second concerns the real feelings of people who generally aren't poli, so I'm really not sure where that interpretation came from.

IMO the problem is the sheer NUMBER of films like that, like "this it it, this is the NORM".

Something else, Austen's specialty was having some girl go through a series of amusing misunderstandings and then get married, the end. She was a master at that but not a person to read for character depth, or understanding what drives people or any of that. Her characters don't even seem to feel much, it's more about the plot. I wouldn't read Austen expecting insights about men. In her books they're either some prize to be won in the end, or some problem to be avoided, nothing more.

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #125 on: June 19, 2012, 01:57:04 am »
I think, using the stuff Burns added, it's a good example of a trope to do with the lovers journey, from 'Addicted Lover' to 'Lover in their fullness'.

I'm not sure how you ended up with those interpretations; the first isn't about dating strategy, it's about falling for someone because they don't immediately fall for you like everyone else does; like Mr Darcy in P&P, or the female example is Emma and Mr Knightly in Austin's Emma. No sex there.

Also the second concerns the real feelings of people who generally aren't poli, so I'm really not sure where that interpretation came from.

IMO the problem is the sheer NUMBER of films like that, like "this it it, this is the NORM."

Exactly. Also, it's the complete lack of a counter-example. If you see a bachelor "of a certain age" represented he's either a total man-child or a tragic broken down wrestler/country-singer/author with a severe personality disorder. He's never just a dude who's chosen that for himself.
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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #126 on: June 19, 2012, 02:25:31 am »
I think Arthur is a great example of a movie to tie in the growing up from a boy to a man trope with the romance being part of the catalyst for the change. Hell, in the remake starring Russell Brand he drives the friggin batmobile.

Which leads us to Manchild.  This seems like the typical example that Bly describes.

From the trope:
The Man Child, a term invented by William Faulkner, is usually an adult who possesses a very childlike or childish demeanor. He's emotionally both simple and fragile; he prefers (although does not always need) to have a parent figure to look after him. He usually isn't very worldly and is typically pretty gullible. The Man Child's interests are usually what most people consider to be immature or childish, even in comparison to actual children.

In the vast majority of cases, the character is Always Male.

In addition to the remake version:
Well Done Son Guy: Nearly all of Arthur's emotional troubles stem from his awful mother (he calls her by her first name, Vivianne) and the fact his perfectly healthy father died suddenly at the age of 45, when Arthur was 6. By the end of the film, he openly considers his nanny Hobson to be his real mother.

I think the shear number of these films might be indicative of a situation not unlike the quote above.  Although I think Bly would be wholly disagree with the fact that Hobson should have been a female.  In the original Hobson WAS a male. 

I wonder if the fact that in the remake Hobson's role being taken by a rather more masculine woman is a closer example of the norm of today.  I, however, don't doubt that a woman can take on that role of teaching a boy to be a man (I disagree with Bly on that note), at the same time, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

Edit: In bold ... sort of said what I didn't intend to say.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 02:38:27 am by Bu☆ns »

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #127 on: June 19, 2012, 02:35:26 am »
I, however, don't doubt that a woman can't take on that role of teaching a boy to be a man (I disagree with Bly on that note), at the same time, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

In the movies, that only happens in the cathouse. "Experienced understanding hooker teaches terrified kid that sex is fun."
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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #128 on: June 19, 2012, 05:01:49 am »


HOW ABOUT

          Discussing hugh Grant and "Arther" films is A WASTE OF YER EFFIN BODILY FLUIDS!!?
"a good fight justifies any cause"

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #129 on: June 19, 2012, 05:17:57 am »


HOW ABOUT

          Discussing hugh Grant and "Arther" films is A WASTE OF YER EFFIN BODILY FLUIDS!!?

EOT SPEAKS WISELY
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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #130 on: June 19, 2012, 05:47:41 am »



Placid Dingo

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #131 on: June 26, 2012, 01:03:44 pm »
Burns, I was thinking about that trangle, and thinking it could represent any number of specific archtypes, and could provide a personal goal.

So an Atheist triangle might be used to guide oneself into the Atheist in their fullness, avoiding becoming a (weak self) Persecuted Nihilist or a (overbearing self) Dogmatic Fundamentalist.

A graphic designer might seek to realise the self in fullness
vs                              The Immitator                              The Abstractor


Discordian provides a good model in that Discordian in fullness means what you want it to.

Just some thoughts.
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #132 on: June 26, 2012, 01:19:05 pm »
Of course, that also brings to mind the ARC triangle of Scientology.


Well, it doesn't, but it does show the Lo5 in full effect.  One point is data, two points is a relationship, three points is a pattern.

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2012, 04:42:04 am »
Burns, I was thinking about that trangle, and thinking it could represent any number of specific archtypes, and could provide a personal goal.

So an Atheist triangle might be used to guide oneself into the Atheist in their fullness, avoiding becoming a (weak self) Persecuted Nihilist or a (overbearing self) Dogmatic Fundamentalist.

A graphic designer might seek to realise the self in fullness
vs                              The Immitator                              The Abstractor


Discordian provides a good model in that Discordian in fullness means what you want it to.

Just some thoughts.

That's an interesting idea...why stop at the male archetype? Sounds like it might be a useful model for concretizing some abstractions in terms of others.  I can see it also helping out with therapeutic facilitating. I think I'll give this some more thought--thanks.

Of course, that also brings to mind the ARC triangle of Scientology.


Well, it doesn't, but it does show the Lo5 in full effect.  One point is data, two points is a relationship, three points is a pattern.



Heh--yes.  One of the things I just read about the ARC triangle is that all points are interdependent on all others--that each point needs the other two and that the other two needs the other single point.  Even examining these ideas in that light might make for another interesting introspection.  You know, rather than seeing the bottom two points as a spectrum and the top point an place of transcending the bottom ones.   Thanks, LMNO

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Re: Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement
« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2013, 04:51:38 am »
I was revisiting Robert Moore's ideas tonight and I found that he regarded Robert Bly's retreats as a way of getting men in touch with their Lover archetype.  The King, Warrior and Magician, however, would be accessed in different ways. 

I want to go more into this...maybe i should start a thread specifically for it.. At any rate I'd like to explore these archetypes individually and possibly get some feedback on how any of you regard these archetypes.  I'll do this when I haven't driven for four and a half hours.

See, even though Moore's intent was to understand these as male psyche archetypes, they're also present in the female psyche.  He mentions the Queen, the Warrior Woman, and how they're equally important.  The workshop i listened to tonight was in 1989 and at one point mentions how he believes girls should begin martial arts early in life to develop the warrior aspect in women that is often repressed in a Patriarchal society.  He mentioned how he sometimes gets flack for it and also has some very fair and insightful views on feminism that I'll try to find more about. 

Granted Jungians tend to be a bit strange sometimes, this guy seems pretty down to earth. 

Anyway that'll all i want to say before I start rambling....