Author Topic: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?  (Read 1399 times)

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HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« on: June 24, 2012, 04:58:29 pm »


http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism

QUOTE:

          The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.

A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: "The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society."
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 05:38:38 pm »
I understand the thinking behind wanting immigrants to your country to assimilate into your country's culture (especially when you live in a country that actually HAS culture), but I'm not sure such a policy has ever worked out well and I definitely DON'T agree with targeting one specific group with such a policy.
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2012, 05:54:10 pm »
A lot of major clusterfucks have started with targeting one specific group that "nobody likes" and eventually ended up shitting on everybody.
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2012, 06:11:06 pm »
I'm of mixed feelings.

Unlike the US and other colonial nations, the Netherlands is not a culture based on a hodgepodge of invaders; it actually has an original culture to protect. Let's ignore for a moment the extreme irony of them deciding to protect their own culture from invaders after raping the shit out of so many others.

This:

Quote
The government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner, "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013.

If necessary, the government will introduce extra measures to allow the removal of residence permits from immigrants who fail their integration course.

is weird and self-contradicting. Why were there special subsidies for Muslims in the first place?

And Donner says "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." but, herp derp, if you want them to integrate, shouldn't you be proactive? The US programs for immigrant integration were highly successful; it's a shame we discontinued them. But the article then goes on to mention an integration course. So wait; on the one hand, the government IS trying to integrate them, while on the other hand claiming it's not their job? Pick one.

I do not at all like the part about outlawing garments that cover the face, or "tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress". What bullshit is that? Basically, it sounds like if you're visibly Muslim and you're discriminated against, the government is totally cool with that and you're going to get punished for being discriminated against? That's fucked up. They're legislating what you can WEAR? Some kind of national dress code? What's next, ticketing anyone who isn't wearing suspenders and wooden shoes?

Lastly, while I do appreciate the desire to preserve their own unique culture, hopefully they're also keeping in mind that a living culture is not static, but ever-changing and evolving, and that you can't put it in a museum to protect it against change for all time. An unchanging culture is a dead culture.



« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 06:12:54 pm by PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON »
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 06:24:46 pm »
:mittens: to that entire post, Nigel.
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2012, 07:00:53 pm »
I don't know much about the native culture of the Netherlands. My only real frame of reference is the US, whose government as far as I know, is generally far to right of most European governments. But if new policies like the one in the article were introduced here, our political system would probably explode in all kinds of exciting and scary ways. Even here, where at least half of the population has a sturdy distrust and dislike for "immigrants" (whether they actually immigrated here or just look like they did), laws like this would probably not pass.

Imagine a new law in America that outlawed sombreros or made speaking Spanish a crime, or encouraged employers to discriminate against Spanish speakers. Sure there are plenty of people who would LOVE to see that happen here, but despite what they like to think they don't have the political power to actually DO it. So I'm confused as to why this is happening in the Netherlands and makes me wonder if the US is really as tolerant as I think it is.
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 07:36:33 pm »
Thanks, guys.

It's really hard to compare the US to the Netherlands when it comes to immigration; policies that would work for them would most likely not work for us at all. For instance, we don't have a national language. Our culture itself arose from successive waves of immigration; as much as people may fight it, immigration is deeply entrenched in our culture. The immigration story, as an archetype, is part of our national identity. That's not the case in places like the Netherlands, so they have different issues.

It's further complicated by the fact that there is no social infrastructure already in place for Muslims there. Here, assimilating a Mexican Catholic family is a piece of cake, because the Irish broke that ground and there's already a place for Catholics here. The cultural similarities are already really strong, and really the only major thing other than appearance that separates most Mexicans from most Americans is language. So, they assimilate into our culture within a generation. Other religious groups that place less emphasis on their identities as a member of that religion also tend to assimilate well. The entire Muslim identity is distinct, and it's built into the religion that a person's entire existence IS AS A MUSLIM, so you can't separate the individual from the religion. That means that in order for them to integrate, the culture they're integrating into has to shift. That's obviously what the Dutch are resisting. It's a pretty major conflict, and not likely to be resolved easily.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”

“People get used to anything. The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free, you have to be acutely aware of being a slave.”
― Assata Shaku

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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 07:46:40 pm »
I'm of mixed feelings.

Unlike the US and other colonial nations, the Netherlands is not a culture based on a hodgepodge of invaders; it actually has an original culture to protect. Let's ignore for a moment the extreme irony of them deciding to protect their own culture from invaders after raping the shit out of so many others.

This:

Quote
The government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner, "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013.

If necessary, the government will introduce extra measures to allow the removal of residence permits from immigrants who fail their integration course.

is weird and self-contradicting. Why were there special subsidies for Muslims in the first place?

That's a good question. And TBH, when I saw that, part of my mind went "WTF? I'd love to get out of this fucking country and nobody's going to subsidize ME".
"Somebody's getting something I can't have" is the entrance ramp to all kinds of stupid prejudice, though. Maybe these were refugees from some horrible war-torn area. Maybe not. Need more information.

Quote
And Donner says "it is not the government's job to integrate immigrants." but, herp derp, if you want them to integrate, shouldn't you be proactive? The US programs for immigrant integration were highly successful; it's a shame we discontinued them. But the article then goes on to mention an integration course. So wait; on the one hand, the government IS trying to integrate them, while on the other hand claiming it's not their job? Pick one.

Most things Dutch seem contradictory as fuck.  :lol:

Quote
I do not at all like the part about outlawing garments that cover the face, or "tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress". What bullshit is that? Basically, it sounds like if you're visibly Muslim and you're discriminated against, the government is totally cool with that and you're going to get punished for being discriminated against? That's fucked up. They're legislating what you can WEAR? Some kind of national dress code? What's next, ticketing anyone who isn't wearing suspenders and wooden shoes?

So much for tolerance over there.  :x
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Quote
Lastly, while I do appreciate the desire to preserve their own unique culture, hopefully they're also keeping in mind that a living culture is not static, but ever-changing and evolving, and that you can't put it in a museum to protect it against change for all time. An unchanging culture is a dead culture.

:mittens: "Preserve" is something you do with formaldehyde and jars.
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 07:56:31 pm »
Thanks, guys.

It's really hard to compare the US to the Netherlands when it comes to immigration; policies that would work for them would most likely not work for us at all. For instance, we don't have a national language. Our culture itself arose from successive waves of immigration; as much as people may fight it, immigration is deeply entrenched in our culture. The immigration story, as an archetype, is part of our national identity. That's not the case in places like the Netherlands, so they have different issues.

It's further complicated by the fact that there is no social infrastructure already in place for Muslims there. Here, assimilating a Mexican Catholic family is a piece of cake, because the Irish broke that ground and there's already a place for Catholics here. The cultural similarities are already really strong, and really the only major thing other than appearance that separates most Mexicans from most Americans is language. So, they assimilate into our culture within a generation. Other religious groups that place less emphasis on their identities as a member of that religion also tend to assimilate well. The entire Muslim identity is distinct, and it's built into the religion that a person's entire existence IS AS A MUSLIM, so you can't separate the individual from the religion. That means that in order for them to integrate, the culture they're integrating into has to shift. That's obviously what the Dutch are resisting. It's a pretty major conflict, and not likely to be resolved easily.

I like the Canadian ideal ("ideal" might be key here, I know everything isn't fun and games there) of a "mosiac" rather than a "melting pot".
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 08:44:28 pm »
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.

Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.


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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2012, 10:01:31 pm »
I've been hearing a lot of more worrying stories than this. Especially when blatantly racist parties such as the Anti-Muslim Freedom Party are gaining ground over there. There's stories about how Muslims aren't integrating, and others on how they are the cause of the downturn in the economy and it makes you wonder if they aren't out and out being used as a scapegoat.
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2012, 10:27:45 pm »
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.

Thanks for that...I didn't notice the date (hurrr, derp) and a lot has happened since then.

Quote
Anyway, I recognize that there are a lot of problems in integrating Muslim immigrants into society, but policies such as those mentioned in the OP only serve to alienate the immigrants even more. Even if a problem is distinctive to one particular group, policies targetting that single group will often just cause more polarization and common distrust of said group.

I wonder if they're not just scapegoating anyway. Dutch culture has been around forever and withstood a lot more than a few Muslims moving in. It's not like they're rounding up Dutch kids and sending them to some Muslim equivalent of Carlisle Indian School.  :x
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2012, 10:43:26 pm »
In some ways, a lack of integration may be at the heart of why native Dutchspags and tanned Dutchspags from East Dutchspagistan don't get along too well.

European countries, barring France, didn't really have an integration policy of any kind at all, because mass immigration was never planned for.  It was assumed that given a couple of generations, with no effort on the behalf of central government, things would sort themselves out and everyone would get on just fine.

That didn't happen.  Immigrants holed themselves up in ethnic enclaves and their children, feeling the identity of their parents home countries rang false and that they were not accepted in this new country, turned to radical religion to forge an identity for themselves.

It's no coincidence two of the countries with the least coordinated integration policies, the UK and Holland, have some of the most radical Islamic populations in Europe (France has its own sizeable contingent as well, but for reasons unrelated to integration policy and more to do with the history of French involvement in North African and Middle Eastern covert wars).  UK Muslims are far more likely to voice support for 9/11, or instituting Sharia Law, or that homosexuality and apostasy should be capital punishments than their counterparts in America, for example.

On the other hand, a high-handed "do it our way or GTFO" approach isn't going to work, for the reasons mentioned above, and is more likely to spur resentment.  There is going to have to be give and take, on all sides.

Unfortunately, this problem has been allowed to fester, and it may already be the case that, at least with certain vocal segments, we've gotten to the point where they are not willing to negotiate at all - that even conceding a single inch would be seen as unforgivable and treachery of the highest order.  Not among a majority on either side, thank goodness, but a hardcore plurality are certainly open to seeing things in that light, whether they're Muslim Brotherhood fanbois or "counter-jihadist" lunatics.

All I'm saying, as I am so fond of pointing out, is that sometimes things have gone too far for a nice, simple solution.  Going back to the start and trying to work from a clean slate is nice, in theory, but in practice, there are no clean slates.  Something will have to give.  I'm hoping it's the fundamentalist attitudes of certain Muslim and Christian culture warriors, but I somehow doubt it.
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2012, 05:44:35 pm »
Quote from: Lenin McCarthy
That article is a year old and the Dutch are having new elections in September, so I'm not sure how relevant that document is.

This is the first I hear about NL seriously wanting to do away with multiculturalism as a policy, so I doubt it. There's been a lot of critique saying "the multicultural society has been a failure" and there's definitely some truth to that, it didn't work as well as we hoped, but on the other hand, just because there's still a lot of problems with integration doesn't mean the alternative would have worked better.

One problem I often see with these kinds of translated articles is that just because the House of Representatives (2e Kamer) decides something, doesn't mean it's actually going to happen. That's because the Senate (1e Kamer) needs to okay it first, and then there's always the chance that the government falls before its term is over and that usually means that a lot of stuff doesn't happen.

In a similar thing, the English WP article on Burqa's claims that we outlawed them for a fine of 380 euros. I'm not aware of any such laws. I think it got lost because they decided it in January but then our cabinet fell again.

Ineffective government is the best kind of government, sometimes :)



While it is true that NL has its own culture that we might want to preserve, it's also the case that contemporary Dutch culture is shaped a lot by immigrants as well. Notably the Indonesians from our colonial times, Turkish immigrant workers in 1964, Moroccan immigrant workers in 1969, Antillians, Surinamese following their independence in 1975, after the military coup of 1980, or after the December murders on 1982, and more.

Because of all those waves of immigrants we came up with our notion of a "multicultural society", and especially from the left side of politics been working hard to integrate everything.

I always liked this, mostly because Dutch cuisine on its own is quite boring.

But it's only been recently that the focus has been so strongly on Muslim culture. And it's weird because you mostly hear about the Muslim Moroccans, while I just looked up and it's the Turkish that form the largest group of Muslims in NL--which is why I though it was the other way around and maybe the Turkish aren't as religious, but they are--so obviously a lot of this mess is based on prejudice and not on facts.

Quote from: Nigel
Why were there special subsidies for Muslims in the first place?

Because of the multicultural society thing. It's not just for Muslims, but as far as I'm aware the subsidies are available for all sorts of projects that work to integrate those large groups of immigrants. I'm unclear about the details.

Therefore, this seems to be more something about the economy is going to shit, and we need to spend less money on a lot of things, and subsidies for multiculti projects have been under fire for a while now thanks to the likes of Fortuyn and Wilders. The economic crisis is why nobody can has nice things, it's also cutting into our public healthcare system, social services and foreign/developmental aid, and all those other cool things that made the Netherlands into a country I could be kind of PROUD of. I mean of all the aspects of our culture that I want to preserve, it's those things, the socialism and the welfare state. Not some historial "original culture" of the Netherlands with the cheese and the tulips and windmills, that's for the tourists. There's a lot of active living and breathing culture going on in the Netherlands and a lot of that actually grew in the past century, partly from WW2, but also all these waves of immigrants and the multiculturalism that sprouted from that. They call it "cultural relativism", but the Dutch have known it since forever as "Just be yourself, that's crazy enough!"

About the headwear face-covering garments thing, the only valid reason I see to actually legislate such things, is to be in accordance with similar laws that say you can't enter a bank building wearing a ski-mask either (but afaik we don't have a law like that in NL, currently).
On a personal level, I think requiring women to hide their entire bodies and faces is stupid and denigrating. But then, I think a lot of Christian customs are quite stupid as well, especially the tasteless depictions of gruesome torture scenes in Catholic churches without requiring ANY parental guidance, won't somebody think of the children??
Anyway, the only valid way to get Muslim women to stop hiding themselves in cloth, is through multicultural integration and emancipation. And then if they still want to wear those things, then whatever. But ONLY if gay Muslim cross-dressing men also get to wear them without getting beaten up. Fair is fair.
A Dutch newspaper article I just looked up estimates there's 150-200 women in NL that wear a burqa or nikab. In that case, wtf are we even talking about. Put parental advisory and age limits on the Jesus gore slashfic depictions first, there's way more of those.



Quote from: Faust
I've been hearing a lot of more worrying stories than this. Especially when blatantly racist parties such as the Anti-Muslim Freedom Party are gaining ground over there. There's stories about how Muslims aren't integrating, and others on how they are the cause of the downturn in the economy and it makes you wonder if they aren't out and out being used as a scapegoat.

That is absolutely true. Geert Wilders and his "Freedom Party" are scary as fuck.


Quote from: Cain
It's no coincidence two of the countries with the least coordinated integration policies, the UK and Holland

Huh? Can you explain? I thought we were trying real hard to make integration and multiculturalism work, but we're not? What do other countries do even more, then?
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Re: HEY 000, what's going on with your peoples?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 05:48:58 pm »
France and Germany do a lot more, off the top of my head.  Slovenia, surprisingly, does rather a lot as well.  Italy's not great, Spain is kinda meh as well, but Holland and England traditionally have a "hands off, it will all sort itself out" approach to these kind of things, rather distinct from the rest of the continent.

Which isn't to say either of them do nothing, only they do much far less than the above mentioned countries.  Minorities typically assimilate best in the USA and in France, though of course there are always exceptions.
"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before? Only the Logos allows one to mitigate that slavery. Only knowing the sources of thought and action allows us to own our thoughts and our actions, to throw off the yoke of circumstance."
- R. Scott Bakker, The Darkness That Comes Before