Just. Shut. Up.

[El Twid]

Also, another thing that drives me nuts is any suggestion that America is great. Once you accept this you start to except those.

Torturing people is wrong. Except when it's US.
China's human rights record is disgusting. They should have a better track record than US. We don't have to do better though. C'mon guy, this is US we're talking about!
Europe's a mess because of Universal Health Care. We were successful (at what?) because we did not have Universal Health Care.
The Constitution only applies to American citizens. (I read this one today)
Terrorists don't deserve due process.

And so on.

America's not that great at that point is it? Oh, but that's all necessary. Yes, yes. They've done a very good job of convincing you that you need to give away some of your rights for security but Healthcare Reform is beyond the pale and deserves a violent uprising as a response.

Oh, and the whole King Obama bullshit too. 

I think also, if the person being called out as a propagandist says that they are not, a good response is "you're either a propagandist or a zombie who believes propaganda. So are you the one thinking it up, or the one falling for it?"

[V3X]

What really pisses me off is that we're getting Dystopia before we get flying cars and continent-spanning cities that blot out the sun from the lower 50 or so levels. I feel cheated. Why do we get all the shitty parts of Sci-Fi and none of the awesome parts?

[M. Nigel Salt]

What really pisses me off is that we're getting Dystopia before we get flying cars and continent-spanning cities that blot out the sun from the lower 50 or so levels. I feel cheated. Why do we get all the shitty parts of Sci-Fi and none of the awesome parts?

The awesome parts are coming, after we build our robot masters to protect us.

[The Johnny]

They really don't get it. With folk my age, that's inexperience - these kids assume they're "pre-rich" as Nigel (I think?) called them.
With older adults? I think it's willful.

Of course it is. You see what they do when you debate something they've said "LALALALALA NOT LISTENING!"

I think it's because they're scared to look. They can't live with the Horrible Truth^(TM) so they just keep yelling to shut it out.

Oh yeah. They have no interest in listening to facts. None whatsoever.

Hell, I've done the same thing saying, I'm not a huge fan of Obama and here's why. It's a real, and legitimate reason to dislike the man.

"Yeah yeah! And he's also a Kenyan socialist!"

No dude, he's not. Yes he is, his policies are all socialist. No dude. They're not. I used to be a flat out Communist. I think I know what a Socialist is. Obama is not one of them. Yes, he is. Also, you're a Communist.

Obamacare
Obamatax
Obummer
Obongo <---yeah that's not fucking racist at all
0bozo

It goes on and on. Oh hey, you're a fucking racist.

No I'm not, you're the racist for playing the race card.

I'm white.

Then you've got white guilt.

Fucking hell, there's just so much stupid in these people it's maddening. You want to choke them for being so fucking stupid and dishonest with themselves.

One of my friends posted this today. Perfectly nonpartisan, commonsense observation:



You can actually see the whole shutdown process in just two comments by this Michelle character:

Wow, yeah; and most people just give up in despair at that point of dealing with a propagandist like that, because arguing with them is hopeless. I propose that we start responding to things like that with "I cannot argue with a propagandist" and see where it goes from there.

I think its a practice called "framing the debate", stating a supposedly "unquestionable truth" and argue from there on.

Its basicly saying "you are an anarchist/socialist, your argument is invalid" because "anarchists have never been to power, what has brought us prosperity is this partisan system" with a slight twist of "you are unamerican for saying this".

[stelz]

"Greatest nation in the world" = "unquestionable truth" = 

[Wow, yeah; and most people just give up in despair at that point of dealing with a propagandist like that, because arguing with them is hopeless. I propose that we start responding to things like that with "I cannot argue with a propagandist" and see where it goes from there.

Now THAT sounds fun. 

[E.O.T.]

TWID,

          you're just a rabble-rousing commie!

[El Twid]

Maybe i am. What did i do?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I DO pay taxes.  And I'd fucking well rather see them go to roads and bridges and to make sure nobody goes hungry.  Instead, my taxes go to Goldmann Sachs and Raytheon.

[El Twid]

I DO pay taxes.  And I'd fucking well rather see them go to roads and bridges and to make sure nobody goes hungry.  Instead, my taxes go to Goldmann Sachs and Raytheon.

This.

[Balls Wellington]

I DO pay taxes.  And I'd fucking well rather see them go to roads and bridges and to make sure nobody goes hungry.  Instead, my taxes go to Goldmann Sachs and Raytheon.

This used to REALLY piss me off until I got a job where, ultimately, my bills are being paid by Raytheon, CNC, etc.

Funny thing is, I sleep just fine at night.

Well, I sleep, at least.

Well, at least I can pay for the habits that balance out my insomnia and keep me on an even keel.

[LMNO, PhD (life continues)]

There's a new show on HBO called "The Newsroom".  On the first episode, maybe three minutes in, you get this:

"We lead the world in only three categories: number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending, where we spend more than the next twenty-six countries combined, 25 of whom are allies.

"None of this is the fault of a 20-year-old college student, but you, nonetheless, are without a doubt, a member of the WORST-period-GENERATION-period-EVER-period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about?! Yosemite?!!!

"We sure used to be.  We stood up for what was right! We fought for moral reasons, we passed and struck down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were, and we never beat our chest.

"We built great big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases, and cultivated the world's greatest artists and the world's greatest economy. We reached for the stars, and we acted like men. We aspired to intelligence; we didn't belittle it; it didn't make us feel inferior. We didn't identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election, and we didn't scare so easy. And we were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed. By great men, men who were revered.

"The first step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one — America is not the greatest country in the world anymore."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEyUWKJFER8

[Cain]

Unfortunately, that's mostly bullshit.

What made America great was European stupidity, and not getting embroiled in it until the Krauts started pissing around in Mexico and threatening investments.  How did America overtake London as the world's leading creditor nation?  Well, it let London be the paymaster for France, Russia and its own forces in the field for three years, let the European economy be devastated by the demands of Total War, then moved into the gap.  Who won WWI?  Those who fought in it the least.

And America's "moral reasonings" included naive, moralistic, self-righteous lecturing on the "evils" of traditional diplomacy, which had mostly stopped the world imploding into war, up until Bismarck started getting too clever for his own good and coming up with strange theories of interlocking alliances.  Oh, and a good bit of racism and Social Darwinism.  That was a very strong component of American thinking, as well.  Not that this was much different to everyone else's views on global affairs, which was mostly along the lines of a "view of world order which stressed struggle, change, competition, the use of force and the organisation of national resources to enhance state power."

American Exceptionalism is bullshit, whether it's of the Neocon "rah-rah-rah" type, or the liberal "America is/was a force for Good In The World".  Tell it to the millions who perished on the Western Front while New York bankers grew bloated and corpulent on the spoils of war.  That's what made America "great".

[LMNO, PhD (life continues)]

Well, when you put it that way...

You're right, of course.  Was America ever the "greatest"?  What does that even mean, when speaking about a country?  Greatest at what?  Greatest as what? 

But I kind of feel that Aaron Sorkin didn't want to get into that/believes they Greatest Generation hype.  So it goes.

[Cain]

Sorkin's kind of a dick, anyway.  In his world, if we all listened to the Wise Liberal Technocrats, everything would be good, totally ignoring that a) liberal technocrats helped get us into this mess and b) make fundamentalist, conservative backlashes inevitable with their failures.

Yes, I watched the West Wing too, but, come on, it wasn't that good.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Unfortunately, that's mostly bullshit.

What made America great was European stupidity, and not getting embroiled in it until the Krauts started pissing around in Mexico and threatening investments.  How did America overtake London as the world's leading creditor nation?  Well, it let London be the paymaster for France, Russia and its own forces in the field for three years, let the European economy be devastated by the demands of Total War, then moved into the gap.  Who won WWI?  Those who fought in it the least.

And America's "moral reasonings" included naive, moralistic, self-righteous lecturing on the "evils" of traditional diplomacy, which had mostly stopped the world imploding into war, up until Bismarck started getting too clever for his own good and coming up with strange theories of interlocking alliances.  Oh, and a good bit of racism and Social Darwinism.  That was a very strong component of American thinking, as well.  Not that this was much different to everyone else's views on global affairs, which was mostly along the lines of a "view of world order which stressed struggle, change, competition, the use of force and the organisation of national resources to enhance state power."

American Exceptionalism is bullshit, whether it's of the Neocon "rah-rah-rah" type, or the liberal "America is/was a force for Good In The World".  Tell it to the millions who perished on the Western Front while New York bankers grew bloated and corpulent on the spoils of war.  That's what made America "great".

America had one thing going for it, Cain.  For the most part, from the time of the founding until the time of Ronald Reagan, things were continually improving.  The decline BEGAN with Nixon, but wasn't really felt until 1980.

Were we perfect, or even moral?  No.

Were we trying?  Yes.

Emphasis on the "were".