Kyriarchy - books and article discussion thread

[Juana Go?]

I just finished Body Wars: Making Peace with Women's Bodies, an Activist's Guide by Margo Maine[/url], which is both sad and very good, and touches everything from really fucked up adult body images, their affect on kids, gendered violence, and the way "body wars" (the way culture puts you at war with your own body in order to fit the 'standard') affect men, too, and how to change it all.

The book is from 2000 and culture has shifted some since then, I suspect it's mostly the same (although, let's be real, this book was published when I was eleven, so please correct me if I'm wrong).

I originally purchased Body Wars to check out the source of a pants-shittingly terrifying rape statistic (it made avoiding all men, forever and ever amen, sound like a really good idea). The source is a 1988 survey done by Ms. magazine and while I'd like to say things have changed (and in some ways I think they have. Maybe) the idea that there are some situations where the woman owes a man sex is still prevalent IME, and I don't think it's too far to say that there are a lot of men who would force it if they thought they were being denied their rightful poon.

The other parts I thought were valuable talked about body image specifically, especially the discussion of how poorly managed dieting (which is most of it) ends up fucking you up hardcore (a lot of the problems associated with being obese are also the same sort of issues shitty diets cause, and given the rate at which fat people in particular diet, there's definitely a link), how body wars affect men (I'd like PD dudes' thoughts here, particularly the older ones who've had the chance to watch the standard change), and how adults pass on their body concerns to their children. In particular, I found the way athletics sometimes body polices little girls ('"fat pig" awards given by coaches, group weigh ins, etc.) and the way the medical field is dealing with kids to be distressing (the book included one instance of a pediatrician who wanted to put an infant on a diet).

[standvast]

I'd like PD dudes' thoughts here, particularly the older ones who've had the chance to watch the standard change

Sure,  here goes.
i'm 33, male ,  have a potbelly (which is accepted and cherished by my (beuaty of a Rubenesque )  wife)
...never felt like there was a single set standard to body image.

I was never encouraged to live up to a standard, or to maintain a certain weight, or critisized by parents or peers,
i used to excersize/play sports a lot more than i do now, and had a vegetarian diet till i was about 27.

The media-promoted-standard did shift ,..

For a standard i could use/look at the "muscular athletic man" (Swarzenegger/He-man/ B.A.Barakus /David Husslehof in his baywatch days) ,
(These were supposed "standards" -Eighties-)

or perhaps  "the basketball player" "Tall lean succesfull businessman who fills out three piece suit perfectly" "Fox Mulder"  "johnny Depp" 
(Ninetees)

or  "skinnyjeans wearing metrosexual male model" "overgroomed tall and handsome asshat without a grain of fat on him" 
(2000 and beyond~ )

i never looked like any of those, at any given time,..
nor did i get the feeling that i would become more acceptable/visually appealing to others if i did look like em.

how body wars affect men

directly, i'd say a whole lot less than they affect women,..
I don't know many men who go to the gym or are on a diet because their body does not live up to the standard.

A lot of men do seem to be influenced by the set standards for women, and knowingly or not help enforce these,.

[Pixie]

I've known a lot of skinny guys who wish that they had more muscle mass, and some of those go to the gym to attempt to gain muscle.

[Placid Dingo]

I've known a lot of skinny guys who wish that they had more muscle mass, and some of those go to the gym to attempt to gain muscle.

Yo thats me.

Except now I do martial arts instead of gym. To be honest it was my height that worried me not my body, but I certainly went through a period of real anxiety over my height (shortarse). It is something I've noticed that short men in film are insecure slimy and pathetic. Only exception I've noted is fast and furious Tokyo Drift. And the start of Captain America but thats jingo of negated when he gets tall as part of his heroic transformation.

That said I work out now because I like liking my body.

[M. Nigel Salt]

The short guy thing is interesting, and very damaging to men. One of the things I've observed is that guys who are very self-conscious about being short are less attractive because of their self-consciousness, which creates this unfortunate catch-22 in which they blame their height for their lack of success with women, and/or become bitter because "women only want tall men", and so onward the cycle marches. I have also known (and/or fallen in love with) some extremely attractive short men who don't have this complex. While it's internally driven, it's also clearly socially imposed. Short actors are filmed to appear tall. Tall in movies is portrayed as manly and desirable. Short is portrayed as creepy, weasely or untrustworthy.

[standvast]

^ yeah intweresting that.

My girl told me a couple of times that she "couldn't be with someone shorter than herself"
Not sure whether that is something imposed by the media/society, she explains it to me as "it just does not feel right" .
It's not that she does not find guys attractive because of their shortness, but more of a practical thing ,
like "i can't kiss the guy when wearing my heels , without dropping down to his level"
maybe underneath all its as simple as an instinctive : "if he isn't bigger than me he could not possibly defend/protect me"

On the other end, i never quite understood waht is supposed to be so attractive in tall and long-legged women...
but wouldn't have a problem with women towering over me either.

[Juana Go?]

I kind of a similar thing, actually, in that I prefer dudes who are my height or taller, and I'm about five foot eight or so, so that's average (American) dudes and up. It's most likely a result of acculturation (because I don't have that rule for females/women), so its something I should probably think about.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Worth mentioning:  MS magazine was about as non-biased as Hustler magazine, only on the other end of the spectrum.  While I do not disagree with the general ideas brought forth, terrifying statistics were what they did.  My mother, a feminist activist for 45 years, dropped her subscription over a rash of rather dodgy "studies" that she felt gave the opposition some ammunition.

Here's the official DOUR opinion on body shape:  Be healthy.  Anything else, from being fat¹ to being a workout fanatic₂ is basically gluttony of one kind or another.


¹  Unless there's something medically wrong.
²  Unless it's a hobby or a sport or something like that.

[Juana Go?]

I admit that I am not terribly familiar with MS.. I'll look around some.

That's largely the point Maine made.

[M. Nigel Salt]

^ yeah intweresting that.

My girl told me a couple of times that she "couldn't be with someone shorter than herself"
Not sure whether that is something imposed by the media/society, she explains it to me as "it just does not feel right" .
It's not that she does not find guys attractive because of their shortness, but more of a practical thing ,
like "i can't kiss the guy when wearing my heels , without dropping down to his level"
maybe underneath all its as simple as an instinctive : "if he isn't bigger than me he could not possibly defend/protect me"

On the other end, i never quite understood waht is supposed to be so attractive in tall and long-legged women...
but wouldn't have a problem with women towering over me either.

I've met a lot of women who say they prefer tall men, and I think that in general height is considered attractive from an objective/social standpoint, but all that kind of goes out the window when you meet someone you're attracted to. Sort of like, you might admire women with large breasts, but then fall in love with someone with small breasts, or vise-versa.

[stelz]

There's always ONE ideal. In the 19th century it allowed for a little chubbiness, but corseted. Then flappers, bombshell, Twiggy, hardbelly gym rat and finally today's skinny or hourglass ok, but with fake boobs. Not just big, but fake. They have to look like those bumper guards on old cars.

Ya can't win.

[Juana Go?]

I am briefly breaking my no web Wednesdays policy in order to say two things:

A) I'm interested in what you guys think about the normalization of plastic surgery in relation to ageism, which is also something Maine discusses. She says that plastic surgery use to be reserved for only ageing movie stars, but starting sometime in the nineties it shifted away from that and into something that a lot of people get. Women were still (and continue to be  probably) the primary consumers, but men were increasingly getting plastic surgery as well , particularly hair implants and facelifts.
all of this was in response to the fear of getting older and what that means for your economic and social capital because our society has not responded yet to the fact that people are living longer and longer.
Have the older members of PD observed the shift as well? I know that I don't particularly think anything about people who get plastic surgery and sfaic, it's just one of those things that people sometimes do, but I'm also one of the younger members of the form and it's just something I grew up with.
Do my fellow youngsters fear growing old, not because they are afraid of what it means for the body but because of what it means for them socially?


B) There's a bunch of books that I wanted to talk about, including the next one I had thought to talk about, Punishment for Sale, and if you want to be able to read along or whatever please pm me and I will link you to the download tomorrow or Friday, depending on when I can get online.
(also, I wanted to make it clear that this thread is for anyone who finds something they want to talk about)

There's always ONE ideal. In the 19th century it allowed for a little chubbiness, but corseted. Then flappers, bombshell, Twiggy, hardbelly gym rat and finally today's skinny or hourglass ok, but with fake boobs. Not just big, but fake. They have to look like those bumper guards on old cars.

Ya can't win.

You can get busty hourglasses; they just generally don't come in skinny because boobs are mostly fat. If you want to be skinny, busty, and an hourglass, you don't really have a choice but to get implants.

[Freeky Queen of DERP]

I am briefly breaking my no web Wednesdays policy in order to say two things:

A) I'm interested in what you guys think about the normalization of plastic surgery in relation to ageism, which is also something Maine discusses. She says that plastic surgery use to be reserved for only ageing movie stars, but starting sometime in the nineties it shifted away from that and into something that a lot of people get. Women were still (and continue to be  probably) the primary consumers, but men were increasingly getting plastic surgery as well , particularly hair implants and facelifts.
all of this was in response to the fear of getting older and what that means for your economic and social capital because our society has not responded yet to the fact that people are living longer and longer.
Have the older members of PD observed the shift as well? I know that I don't particularly think anything about people who get plastic surgery and sfaic, it's just one of those things that people sometimes do, but I'm also one of the younger members of the form and it's just something I grew up with.
Do my fellow youngsters fear growing old, not because they are afraid of what it means for the body but because of what it means for them socially?


B) There's a bunch of books that I wanted to talk about, including the next one I had thought to talk about, Punishment for Sale, and if you want to be able to read along or whatever please pm me and I will link you to the download tomorrow or Friday, depending on when I can get online.
(also, I wanted to make it clear that this thread is for anyone who finds something they want to talk about)

A) I, too, don't think a lot about people who get plastic surgery and the like, because like you it was becoming a common thing when I was still really small. 

As for getting old, well, I have no problem with it from a social standing point of view.  I am concerned that, as I get older, the standards of beauty will become even more out of reach to me than they already are.  Then there's the fact that I have a certain amount of surety that there's no guarantee I'll make it past fifty, max, that sort of precludes any social pressures to not get old.  I am not really sure about the social pressure to not get old thing, I haven't really seen it or felt it.  It's a thing that rich, famous, or weird people do, try not to age.

B)  Oooh, me please!

[Juana Go?]

I have let this puppy languish!

I fear aging specifically because of the loss of social and economic capital (I'm going to have another sixty or seventy years, most of which will be perfectly healthy), in part because the loss of it hits females and women harder and sooner. It's harder to find.decent jobs if you look old and I sure as fuck don't think my generation will be doing the same jobs most of our lives, either by choice or lack thereof.


When I has motherfucking internets (HOPEFULLY today), I shall link you to the downloads.

[Signora Pæsior]

I kind of a similar thing, actually, in that I prefer dudes who are my height or taller, and I'm about five foot eight or so, so that's average (American) dudes and up. It's most likely a result of acculturation (because I don't have that rule for females/women), so its something I should probably think about.

I prefer dating people who are taller than me, and I always assumed that was a thing specific to guys I dated until I started going out with a girl who was an inch shorter than me and it felt really weird. Then again, I'm 5'0" so it's probably as much that I'm used to being shorter than everyone else as anything.