Author Topic: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through  (Read 32689 times)

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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #390 on: September 10, 2012, 12:05:23 am »
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.



Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

I think you might be over-looking something. As a male he can, provided he doesn't have terrible health issues or a shit ton of felonies, can get into the military, which is a job in which there are no jobs that he cannot do because he is a male. In other words, he has the "privilege" of being allowed to be a infantryman and get blown up, shot at etc, or anything else.


Wow, that's quite the "privilege" there.  So, the poor, young white guys who are able bodied at least can become armed meat puppets.  What about the rest of the poor white males who can't have that distinct "honor" due to being unhealthy, fat, "wrong", etc?


You're stretching.
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #391 on: September 10, 2012, 12:42:43 am »
You haven't outlined anything that jives with reality, or at least, not the real world I live in.  I don't see any conceivable way how a lower class male can have anything over an upper class woman.  She can get pretty much anything she wants along with the adoration and aulation of society.  The poor schmuck gets spat on by pretty much everyone. 


I do agree that within classes you can see gender advantage, outside, it is a different ball game, it just is.

A poor white male can physically intimidate an upper class women or assault her. After all, he's got nothing to lose and could get healthcare and food if he landed in prison.


Okay, you are talking biology here, no amount of feminism is ever going to change that men, on average, tend to have physical advantages over women.  So I will concede there is some biologically given "privilege" to som men.  Though, I don't think too many women are foing to be intimidated by the bean pole withinour gender.

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What's more salient for you is based on what you were born into.


Gee, like maybe class?  Like, generational poverty maybe?  That is much more salient to a POOR white male than his maleness.

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As straight white males we have a bias to notice class as that's the main form of oppression we are subjected to on a day to day basis. This same class oppression also gets dumped on 99% of women seems to pale in comparison to the gender oppression that they get subjected to on a day to day basis, and hence gender is the most noticeable.


So what's your point? 
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #392 on: September 10, 2012, 12:45:52 am »
I read what you just wrote where you said privilege isn't about enjoying anything, it's about being treated better.  If someone is being treated better, they are enjoying being treated better.  That is enjoying something.
Okay, we're just talking past each other here. I meant "enjoy" in the sense of "having joy in"; you're reading it in the other sense, "have something that is positive". But ECH's dentist example illustrates this perfectly.


You're still not making any sense here.  If you have joy in something you would most certainly be having something that is positive.  Try again.

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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #393 on: September 10, 2012, 01:00:13 am »
Not if it is in a context where it alienates those who do not enjoy the privilege because of those other factors like class.  Especially if you want them to be allies or to just philosophically support your cause.

All men enjoy the privleges that come with being men even if their overall situation is still worse than most peoples because of other factors.



Tell that to the poor whit guy who can't even get into the door for a job interview.  Or the intern I talked about who got passed over by many other places while his female classmates were already starting internships.  Yeah, that "privilege" is really doing wonders for him.

I think you might be over-looking something. As a male he can, provided he doesn't have terrible health issues or a shit ton of felonies, can get into the military, which is a job in which there are no jobs that he cannot do because he is a male. In other words, he has the "privilege" of being allowed to be a infantryman and get blown up, shot at etc, or anything else.

Yes. RWHN, even if your life sucks you still have the privleges of your race, class and gender. Even if those privleges are pretty shit.


Sure, but I've been argung that class trumps gender and race, by definition, given that both genders and multiple races occupy multiple rungs of the social ladder.  I will concede that males have some nature-given biological advantages, but socially, it depends, like it does with everyone else, where you are in the pecking order.  That's what happens in the real world every day.

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In this context a privilege is anything that works in your favour just for being who you are. Even if you're the dirt poor uneducated white guy in your argument you can still go into the local pub without having your arse pinched. Thats a make privilege. It's not ' not ' a privilege just because it doesn't make everything better and put them on top of other people.


That's not a privilege, that's notmbeing treated with disrespect, which is something, at a base level, all humans should expect and deserve.  People who do suffer mistreatment are being harassed and oppressed.


By the way, since I have been groped in a bar before by a member of the opposite gender, does this mean I'm no longer a privileged male?   :lol:

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Privilege is being misunderstood as being something that one group has. Thats not the case. So m maybe your guys class disadvantage means he can't get ahead despite male privleges. Thats not the same as ' no such thing as male privilege.'


I don't understand what you are trying to say here.  It isn't something one group has but the entire group of males does?  Maybe try that paragraph again?




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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #394 on: September 10, 2012, 01:05:41 am »
Bleh, this discussion is tiresome at this point and is just going in circles.  As I say, I can concede a, somewhat, across the board biological advantage for males, otherwise, it really varies and the big factor is class, as to whether or not they truly enjoy any kind of meaningful privilege, and not some meta-wankery defined idea of privilege.
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #395 on: September 10, 2012, 01:06:05 am »
If you have joy in something you would most certainly be having something that is positive.

But not vice versa. Didn't you see ECH's example?

EDIT: I don't think "something that is positive" defines a privilege. It's an advantage or beneficial situation that could otherwise not be the case.
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #396 on: September 10, 2012, 01:11:15 am »
Eh, medical treatment =\= how you are treated by your fellow (wo)man.


I don't think it is a very good analogy at all.


And even if it was relevant, I would argue a person would enjoy not having their mouth full of pain while someone is sticking a drill in your face.
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #397 on: September 10, 2012, 01:43:46 am »
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As straight white males we have a bias to notice class as that's the main form of oppression we are subjected to on a day to day basis. This same class oppression also gets dumped on 99% of women seems to pale in comparison to the gender oppression that they get subjected to on a day to day basis, and hence gender is the most noticeable.

So what's your point? 

Both class oppression and gender oppression are prevalent in society. Gender oppression may be more relevant to women because it is a more noticeable and immediate form of maltreatment.

That is another reason why the invalidation of women's experience of such day to day abuse by trying to reframe the argument around class or telling them men have it just as bad is so odious. It's a form of emotional manipulation called "gaslighting".
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #398 on: September 10, 2012, 01:46:55 am »
^^^^ That. Class is very important, but dismissing the way society tends to treatment is not okay.
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #399 on: September 10, 2012, 01:53:50 am »
Eh, no, class mistreatment is pretty noticeable and immediate, but if you haven't experienced it I can understand why you might not recognize it.  Nobody should be invalidating anyone's day-to-day mistreatment whether it is gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, class based religion based etc.
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #400 on: September 10, 2012, 01:55:49 am »
^^^^ That. Class is very important, but dismissing the way society tends to treatment is not okay.


Yeah, I'm not looking for anyone's permission to have the opinion that I have. 
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #401 on: September 10, 2012, 02:50:04 am »
Eh, no, class mistreatment is pretty noticeable and immediate, but if you haven't experienced it I can understand why you might not recognize it.  Nobody should be invalidating anyone's day-to-day mistreatment whether it is gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, class based religion based etc.

Another good point, thanks for calling me on it. I'm speaking from a point of view that is inherently biased as a middle class straight white male. If I had been born into poverty, I think I'd feel that oppression acutely and it would be much more immediate and noticeable on a day to day level. It's hard to imagine.

It's even harder to imagine such economic hardship and getting subjected to additional cruelty merely for being a female. My guess is that even as a severely economically impoverished woman, gender oppression may be the most salient issue they have to deal with. It's my understanding that women and girls have to deal with higher rates of domestic abuse and being forced into prostitution if they are in the lower economic strata.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 02:52:49 am by Net »
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #402 on: September 10, 2012, 03:30:48 am »
I think you are (perhaps willfully) not understanding what the concept of privilege means in the context of this discussion.


Well then someone clear up what I'm missing, I mean VERBL tried but his argument has some internal validity issues.  You can't say someone receives better treatment but isn't enjoying something.  That doesn't make any sense.

Well as soon as you stop being so intent on being hung up on a meaningless line, perhaps you can go read Corbeau et Renard's excellent post that defines it.

And for the record, yes you can. I can go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled with or without anesthetic. One is clearly better treatment, but it doesn't mean I enjoy having my teeth drilled.


My problem with CeR's post is that it still is too limited.  A white male born into generational poverty is not receiving any privilege as it is being described in this thread.  He is not enjoying any advantage due to his gender.  He is enjoying great disadvantage and poor treatment because of his class.  So in the case of lower class males, I do not agree with the idea that they are receiving privilege.

So you don't think a poor man has societally-conferred advantages over an equally poor woman? FWIW, I totally agree that class is the biggest conferrer of privilege in western society today. But that doesn't mean that in situations where class is more or less equal that men still don't have some privilege that women don't.
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #403 on: September 10, 2012, 03:36:03 am »
So what I'm getting from this:

Class seems to be the #1 differentiation between people in our society.

#2  If we have equal class, between a man and a woman, who both make 100k a year and live on the same street, the man has innate advantages.

#3 If we have equal class, between two men or two woman who both make 100k a year, race then again separates who is above and below.

Correct or am I missing something? I know this is a simplification but I'm trying to make sure I have the main point before moving on to the details of the innate abuse between male/female/race. I'm trying to sort it all out.
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Adding #4 Between equal class M+W and M+M or W+W, M+W has an advantage.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 03:37:41 am by The Dark Monk »
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Re: How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through
« Reply #404 on: September 10, 2012, 03:41:46 am »
I think you are (perhaps willfully) not understanding what the concept of privilege means in the context of this discussion.


Well then someone clear up what I'm missing, I mean VERBL tried but his argument has some internal validity issues.  You can't say someone receives better treatment but isn't enjoying something.  That doesn't make any sense.

Well as soon as you stop being so intent on being hung up on a meaningless line, perhaps you can go read Corbeau et Renard's excellent post that defines it.

And for the record, yes you can. I can go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled with or without anesthetic. One is clearly better treatment, but it doesn't mean I enjoy having my teeth drilled.


My problem with CeR's post is that it still is too limited.  A white male born into generational poverty is not receiving any privilege as it is being described in this thread.  He is not enjoying any advantage due to his gender.  He is enjoying great disadvantage and poor treatment because of his class.  So in the case of lower class males, I do not agree with the idea that they are receiving privilege.

So you don't think a poor man has societally-conferred advantages over an equally poor woman? FWIW, I totally agree that class is the biggest conferrer of privilege in western society today. But that doesn't mean that in situations where class is more or less equal that men still don't have some privilege that women don't.

Sometimes it works in a woman's favor. When a car full of people gets pulled over or a party gets raided, it's often women who get let go because cops tend to assume the men instigated the whole thing (though I'm seeing that less these days).
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