Author Topic: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition  (Read 2790 times)

Verbal Mike

  • EVIL JOO
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • This Time, It's Personal
    • View Profile
Just a quick thought I've been having on the backdrop of our recent discussions of feminism etc.

Before I start, let me note that I will be making some generalizations about people, people whose experience I have barely a glimpse of, and I feel kind of uncomfortable doing so. Hence, a lot of attempts at e-prime. And I'm eager to hear the take of people who are more intimately familiar with what I'm talking about, meaning mainly anyone who's not a cis male. (It's not that my opinion is a-priori invalid, it's that I don't have some crucially relevant perspectives.)

It seems that with patriarchy, as with any other form of oppression (or, any other part of The MachineTM), the dominant group and the memes that justify its dominance have an ally in something probably related to Stockholm Syndrome (you know, the thing where people who are kidnapped start identifying with their captor and feeling positive and dependent about them.)

Sticking to the feminist issue, what I have in mind is this: women, as part of a (relatively) oppressed group, are basically forced to choose, consciously or otherwise, between two lame options. Either they conform with the wishes of their oppressors (not all men, but an abstract The Man), in which case they are giving up on some potential individuality in favor of the comfort of being agreeable to the people in charge; or they refuse to conform, refuse to look and act the way they're expected to, and as a result can maintain individuality, but are both likelier to suffer abuse (from oppressors and conformists alike) and are likely to be stamped off as crazy/weird/bitter/ugly/etc., enabling oppressors and conformists to easily disregard their perspective. "You're just angry because guys don't want you", "don't listen to her, she's just crazy", etc.

This seems to be a pattern so prevalent that it might be useful to think of it as the essence of oppression. Either conform, or be marginalized. The more you conform, the less easy you are to marginalize. But this is where the Stockholmy stuff comes into play. It seems almost obvious, but it's worth pointing out that conformists tend to be the least likely people to realize they are taking part in oppression. I don't know what direction the causality goes in, but everywhere I look, I see conformists who are fine with things as they are and get angry when someone suggests they're part of oppression, and non-conformists who see the oppression and are fucking pissed off for being marginalized by it.

Women who conform to patriarchy, who constantly make huge efforts to be perfect decoration and "playmates" for the men around them, seem to actually want the kind of validation the patriarchy offers them, and look down on women who do not conform as much. And women who are conscious of the patriarchy tend to refuse to conform, at least in some ways, and to look down on women who do conform.

Because patriarchy is still a dominant part of The Machine – which implies that most people carry a bunch of patriarchal memes – and because of the principle that communication can only take place between equals, a majority of society looks down on those individuals who are aware and critical of the patriarchy. Because they look down on them (us), communication is impossible. And so The Machine lives on, and like any attempt to change it, feminism can at most hope to slowly shift the balance away from patriarchy, but never to dismantle The Machine as a whole.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Verbal Mike

  • EVIL JOO
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • This Time, It's Personal
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 02:45:49 pm »
Hmm, this thread should probably be moved to TFY,S.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Dirtbag
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 35105
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 03:25:27 pm »
Done.
"What can we do to help you stop screaming?"

East Coast Hustle

  • Missile Command
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 45759
  • Omnimalevolent Polyfather of Exsanguination in Red
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2012, 03:37:59 pm »
Hey, if I'm not qualified to have an opinion on feminism then neither are you. So you just take your penis and SHUT UP.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Verbal Mike

  • EVIL JOO
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • This Time, It's Personal
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 03:46:00 pm »
WELL I LIKE MY PENIS SO YES I WILL TAKE IT.
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.

Juana Go?

  • Hideous and Otherworldly Attack Duckling of DESPAIR
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 65322
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 04:15:23 pm »
Hey, if I'm not qualified to have an opinion on feminism then neither are you. So you just take your penis and SHUT UP.
This is really, really tired, ECH. The one and only thing men are not allowed to do is dictate what feminism means. That does not forbid you from having opinions or ideas about the subject.
“Call me sentimental, but there’s no-one in the world that I’d like to see get dysentery more than you.” — David Nicholls (One Day)

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Dirtbag
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 35105
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 04:45:21 pm »
The one and only thing men are not allowed to do is dictate what feminism means.

Is there someone who is allowed to do that?
"What can we do to help you stop screaming?"

Juana Go?

  • Hideous and Otherworldly Attack Duckling of DESPAIR
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 65322
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 04:47:23 pm »
Women, as a group.
“Call me sentimental, but there’s no-one in the world that I’d like to see get dysentery more than you.” — David Nicholls (One Day)

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Dirtbag
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 35105
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 04:51:13 pm »
Women, as a group.

Okay, so it's a special pleading thing.
"What can we do to help you stop screaming?"

Juana Go?

  • Hideous and Otherworldly Attack Duckling of DESPAIR
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 65322
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 04:54:57 pm »
No, it's not. Why would men get to decide what feminism means?
“Call me sentimental, but there’s no-one in the world that I’d like to see get dysentery more than you.” — David Nicholls (One Day)

The Right Reverend Nigel

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 604960
  • v=1/3πr2h
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 04:55:20 pm »
Women, as a group.

Hmmm. I don't agree with this. Men can't dictate what feminism means to women, any more than men can dictate women's experiences. Women, on the other hand, are not the only people affected by patriarchy or the only people impacted by feminism, so everyone who participates in feminism dictates what it means for them.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”

“People get used to anything. The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free, you have to be acutely aware of being a slave.”
― Assata Shaku

Juana Go?

  • Hideous and Otherworldly Attack Duckling of DESPAIR
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 65322
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 04:58:19 pm »
Okay, I can see that. The "to women" was largely what I meant, but I hadn't thought much about the latter part for some reason.
“Call me sentimental, but there’s no-one in the world that I’d like to see get dysentery more than you.” — David Nicholls (One Day)

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Dirtbag
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 35105
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 04:58:39 pm »
No, it's not. Why would men get to decide what feminism means?

Well, let's review:

WE may have an opinion, YOU dictate.

That's not egilatarianism...I want nothing to do with it.  You dictate all you like, I'm going to decide what feminism means to me.  If that's offensive or something, too fucking bad, because my definition of feminism applies to all genders, and boils down to "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME". 

So, yeah, I refuse to acknowledge your authority on this subject.
"What can we do to help you stop screaming?"

LMNO, PhD (life continues)

  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 82324
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 04:59:54 pm »
The one and only thing men are not allowed to do is dictate what feminism means.

Is there someone who is allowed to do that?
Women, as a group.

You know when you were asking for examples of when it seemed like you were alienating men?

We've already agreed that people who have not experienced institutional sexism haven't experienced how that feels, and shouldn't tell those who have what they should be feeling. But to say that men can't have a say in something that was once defined on this forum as "the idea that women and men should be treated equally" really feels exclusionary to me.
LMNO
Pope/Wrought Iron Instigator
First Church of Last Exit Before Toll
The Spider Project.

Buy the Chao te Ching, or be doomed forever.

http://www.stonybrook.edu/sb/marburger/index.shtml

"Get offa me, you freaks!  This is not North Korea.  No.  This is America, and I expect to be PAID for that sort of nonsense.  In advance.  No credit...Cash on the barrelhead or GTFO.  I swear to God, there's nothing more annoying than commie perverts who don't understand the intrinsic value of the free market system."

Verbal Mike

  • EVIL JOO
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 18693
  • This Time, It's Personal
    • View Profile
Re: The Machine, Stockholm Syndrome, and marginalization – feminist edition
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 05:04:43 pm »
Is anyone going to say anything about the OP or is this now the official thread about men having a say in feminism?
Unless stated otherwise, feel free to copy or reproduce any text I post anywhere and any way you like. I will never throw a hissy-fit over it, promise.