Author Topic: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?  (Read 761 times)

Verbal Mike

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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2012, 04:45:02 pm »

"Socially liberal" involves a couple of different things.  One is the ability to do with yourself and with your life as you see fit.  The other is a load of different things that can be grouped together as a "social safety net".  This is definitely not in keeping with "fiscally conservativism".

Well, that's only true on a very American/GOP understanding of "conservatism". There are terrific capitalistic arguments to be made for universal guaranteed basic income (or a negative income tax, which is a different way to set up the same thing) but they won't fly in circles which have internalized the equation "social safety net = wasteful government spending" – a meme which simply negates the possibility that the social safety net could be an engine of economic growth and prosperity, as far as I can tell without much strong evidence to support said negation.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 04:45:49 pm »
Well, that's only true on a very American/GOP understanding of "conservatism".

Oh, sure.  But look at the thread title.
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Verbal Mike

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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 04:47:07 pm »
:lulz:
fair 'nuff
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2012, 04:49:13 pm »
:lulz:
fair 'nuff

Thing is, Americans can't do things in a moderate fashion.  We have to be screaming and foaming at the mouth about our beliefs, to prove our credentials to our fellow-believers.  It's been like that since we founded the place, after the British fucked off and left us to our own devices (after dumping religious nuts on us for 200 years.  The fuckers.).
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Verbal Mike

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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 05:13:47 pm »
We have to be screaming and foaming at the mouth about our beliefs, to prove our credentials to our fellow-believers.  It's been like that since we founded the place, after the British fucked off and left us to our own devices (after dumping religious nuts on us for 200 years.  The fuckers.).
Sounds a lot like my home country, really. :)
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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 09:33:13 pm »
I think I see where you're going, but could you please clarify?


"Socially liberal" involves a couple of different things.  One is the ability to do with yourself and with your life as you see fit.  The other is a load of different things that can be grouped together as a "social safety net".  This is definitely not in keeping with "fiscally conservativism".

So, if you define yourself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, either you're a "fiscally conservative" person who wants to take drugs and doesn't give a shit about Gay marriage, or you're a liberal.  You can't really separate fiscal concerns from societal concerns at large.

This is really why the conservative/liberal model doesn't work anymore, unless you're whole-hog one way or the other.

Personally, I am a liberal in the sense that the more radical founders were liberal.  I don't tell YOU what to do, and YOU don't tell ME what to do, on a personal level...But we all pay our taxes and get shit like roads and schools out of it (Jefferson, for example, was a strong proponent of public schools, and roads are written right into the constitution).



But saying you're "fiscally conservative but socially liberal" is the FASHION these days. It says "I may be a chickenshit tightwad, but I'm not an asshole!"
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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2012, 10:36:19 pm »
Hmm, I think that's my new response to that argument, Stellz.
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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2012, 03:24:52 pm »
Don't forget that "fiscally conservative" is  also a buzzword that means "everybody who isn't supports wasteful government spending". The definitions of "wasteful", "government", and "spending" might vary a bit, but the essential message is that everyone who doesn't identify that way is stupid.

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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2012, 03:33:17 pm »
Currently, "fiscally conservative" can also mean, "fuck the poor, buy more guns".
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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2012, 03:36:35 pm »
Currently, "fiscally conservative" can also mean, "fuck the poor, buy more guns".
Also true. :lulz:

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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2012, 05:09:03 am »
It also means "I don't mind if smudgy/gay/female/poor people do what they want, as long as I'm not contributing to their advancement".
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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2012, 05:10:40 am »
It is highly notable that it almost never means what it would, literally translated,  mean, which would be "cut military spending".
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”



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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2012, 05:19:29 am »
It is highly notable that it almost never means what it would, literally translated,  mean, which would be "cut military spending".

That is hilarious, in the same way that finding maggots in your ears would be hilarious.
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Re: The Modern American Conservative: Endangered?
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2012, 07:40:35 am »
I think I see where you're going, but could you please clarify?


"Socially liberal" involves a couple of different things.  One is the ability to do with yourself and with your life as you see fit.  The other is a load of different things that can be grouped together as a "social safety net".  This is definitely not in keeping with "fiscally conservativism".

So, if you define yourself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, either you're a "fiscally conservative" person who wants to take drugs and doesn't give a shit about Gay marriage, or you're a liberal.  You can't really separate fiscal concerns from societal concerns at large.

This is really why the conservative/liberal model doesn't work anymore, unless you're whole-hog one way or the other.

Personally, I am a liberal in the sense that the more radical founders were liberal.  I don't tell YOU what to do, and YOU don't tell ME what to do, on a personal level...But we all pay our taxes and get shit like roads and schools out of it (Jefferson, for example, was a strong proponent of public schools, and roads are written right into the constitution).

That is a good point to clarify, you're absolutely right. The people I was labeling appear to be pro-roads, pro-schools, pro-some kind of social safety net (bot not pro Universal Health care) as long as its in a budgeted plan... and the disallusioned Ron Paulites that really would prefer to see the US military budget whacked to pieces.

Though several of the people I know that call themselves "socially liberal" basically mean "leave your religion out of my politics" and has little to nothing to do with social safety nets.
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