Author Topic: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens  (Read 4282 times)

hunter s.durden

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2012, 04:04:52 am »
Unless you're a historian.

You'd think, right? Franco died in '75, and in broad historical terms that was basically just a few years ago, yet suddenly: amnesia!

"Musso who? Sorry, I'm not familiar with him. Anyway, as I was saying, we all get matching boots and head down to where those gypsies congregate..."

I guess Greeks don't like spoilers.
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Nepos twiddletonis

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 04:50:39 am »
I dont understand the appeal of fascism especially where if you ignore the fact that fascism is inherently xenophobic violent and about as unfree as you can get its a really inefficient system of government headed by one guy who is invariably paranoid.

When you've been fucked over by nameless bureaucrats and faceless politicians, the urge to turn everything over to one guy can sometimes seem sane.

Unless you're a historian.

Twid,
as of right now, still a historian in training, even though that's going to change.


We've been falling for personality cults since at least the Gracchi.  IMO it's part of how we're programmed to be social.

And really, how many folks do you know that seriously learn from History?

I'm a history major for a reason- it's a point of personal interest. So a good portion of my friends are also interested in it. So, my perception is that people learn from history if they're actually interested in it (In other words
Quote
how many folks do you know that seriously learn from History?
answer is probably an outlier). Problem is, if they're interested in it, they usually just have to live with, "oh boy. I've seen this horror movie before."

And personality cults go way before the Gracchi brothers. I'd say it started with Sargon, but truth be told, it probably happened way way before that, we just don't have any documents to attest to Grug the Godlike.
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Nepos twiddletonis

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 04:55:38 am »
Unless you're a historian.

You'd think, right? Franco died in '75, and in broad historical terms that was basically just a few years ago, yet suddenly: amnesia!

"Musso who? Sorry, I'm not familiar with him. Anyway, as I was saying, we all get matching boots and head down to where those gypsies congregate..."

I guess Greeks don't like spoilers.

I think part of the problem is that not only do a lot of people not even know that Franco existed (at least if they are younger than 50), but that Hitler kinda raised the bar really high for Fucked-Upness. It's the whole sort of thing like, "Yeah Mussolini was a dictator but he made the trains run on time." "Yeah, and he also was allied with Hitler and had joint military operations with the Third Reich and had the same sort of thugocracy that the SS and SA had in Germany" "What are you talking about?" " :x"
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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2012, 05:07:48 am »
And personality cults go way before the Gracchi brothers. I'd say it started with Sargon, but truth be told, it probably happened way way before that, we just don't have any documents to attest to Grug the Godlike.


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hunter s.durden

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 05:14:06 am »
I'd say it started with Sargon, but truth be told, it probably happened way way before that, we just don't have any documents to attest to Grug the Godlike.

I would wager most it's most definitely older, way older.

I think many of the "myths" we know were based on real people, Gilgamesh being the best example of the hazy line (and I'm not even sure who was a god and who was just a pharaoh in Egypt). I would not be surprised if Achilles, Herakles, Romulus, Finn McCool, and a whole host of other people were real.

Without science, I image a genetic freak like Michael Phelps would look like a demigod.

I also don't think our psychology has changed much in 10000 years.
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Nepos twiddletonis

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 05:20:32 am »
I'd say it started with Sargon, but truth be told, it probably happened way way before that, we just don't have any documents to attest to Grug the Godlike.

I would wager most it's most definitely older, way older.

I think many of the "myths" we know were based on real people, Gilgamesh being the best example of the hazy line (and I'm not even sure who was a god and who was just a pharaoh in Egypt). I would not be surprised if Achilles, Herakles, Romulus, Finn McCoolFionn mac Cumhail, and a whole host of other people were real.

Without science, I image a genetic freak like Michael Phelps would look like a demigod.

I also don't think our psychology has changed much in 10000 years.

Nah, we're still at the root a pack of monkeys. It's just that we're monkeys that can split the atom, weaponize it, and shoot it all from space.

This is part of the reason I am in favor of planetary confederation.

Twid,
also a bit anal when it comes to anglicizing Irish. (IOW, I disapprove of it entirely)
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hunter s.durden

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2012, 05:32:45 am »
Nah, we're still at the root a pack of monkeys. It's just that we're monkeys that can split the atom, weaponize it, and shoot it all from space.

This is part of the reason I am in favor of planetary confederation.

Agree with the first bit, not sure how it leads to the second bit.

And fuck all that bean sidhe bullshit. I spell like I talk, mu fuka!
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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2012, 05:39:25 am »
I'd say it started with Sargon, but truth be told, it probably happened way way before that, we just don't have any documents to attest to Grug the Godlike.

I would wager most it's most definitely older, way older.

I think many of the "myths" we know were based on real people, Gilgamesh being the best example of the hazy line (and I'm not even sure who was a god and who was just a pharaoh in Egypt). I would not be surprised if Achilles, Herakles, Romulus, Finn McCool, and a whole host of other people were real.

Without science, I image a genetic freak like Michael Phelps would look like a demigod.

I also don't think our psychology has changed much in 10000 years.

Herodotus tells a story of the "true Hercules". He also talks about phoenixes though so make of that what you will.

Boing boing has a link to a book about Golden Dawn today. It's called Discordia.
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Nepos twiddletonis

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2012, 05:42:11 am »
Nah, we're still at the root a pack of monkeys. It's just that we're monkeys that can split the atom, weaponize it, and shoot it all from space.

This is part of the reason I am in favor of planetary confederation.

Agree with the first bit, not sure how it leads to the second bit.

And fuck all that bean sidhe bullshit. I spell like I talk, mu fuka!

It leads to the second bit because if we have planetary government, there is no reason for splitting atoms, except for peaceful purposes.

Agus, pog mo thoin, a mo chara, agus scriobh "Fionn mac Cumhail" as Gaeilge. Is ainm as Gaeilge. Ni ainm as Bearla.

Twid,
Also hates the spelling Finn McCool because it sounds like a cheesy cartoon character with a leather jacket and a brill-creem hairdo.
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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2012, 09:29:05 am »
You might want to look into Greece's own fascist history.

Not only during WWII, where of course the Greek government was deposed and fascist sympathizers put in power by the German Army, but afterwards.  The Greek Civil War, while supposedly between "royalists" and "communists" was more about "former fascist elements versus former partisan elements" (same in Italy, though that was less civil war and more terrorism).

Equally, the rule of the Colonels was quasi-fascist in nature.  It was aimed at saving the country from "anarcho-communists" by installing a military dictatorship which used pretty brutal torture and mass arrests to stay in power.  Also heavy doses of nationalism and Greek Orthodoxy.  There were links going back right to the original "Hellenic Raiding Group" from the Civil War to the junta.

Given the junta ended 42 years ago, people who were junior officers then are highly ranked or recently retired officers now.  And, hell, November 17's campaign against those they saw as complicit in the crimes of the junta kept on going right up to 2002.
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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2012, 09:47:09 am »
My mother was arrested back in the early eighties because she dated a "Suspected communist". She was released when my grandmother  called them up and brow beat them over the phone until they released her.

It's something I haven't looked at too much, my Greek history. The country never really left the military mentality behind, my relatives were horrified when I refused to do my army service. For such a beautiful place it has some fucked up politics.
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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2012, 10:25:38 am »
Most Eurofascist parties are not as violent as the Golden Dawn, and thankfully the economic crisis is not as bad in other countries as it is in Greece right now.

I fully agree that the crisis is worst in Greece (within the EU). However, Hungary's "Jobbik" (http://jobbik.com/) is a fascist party, which has currently 11 percent of parliamentary seats. These members have reintroduced openly antisemitic and anti-roma talk to parliament and are openly in support of various illegal paramilitary groups who, under the guise of helping with keeping law and order in places where the police fails to do, terrorise the people they disapprove of: mostly the Roma, but also jews, non-whites and gay people.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2012, 04:11:15 pm »
I dont understand the appeal of fascism especially where if you ignore the fact that fascism is inherently xenophobic violent and about as unfree as you can get its a really inefficient system of government headed by one guy who is invariably paranoid.

When you've been fucked over by nameless bureaucrats and faceless politicians, the urge to turn everything over to one guy can sometimes seem sane.

Precisely.  Dictators don't just show up one day.  They are advertised for, by a population that is either unwilling or unable to handle the complexities of society.
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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2012, 04:12:57 pm »

This is part of the reason I am in favor of planetary confederation.

Twid,
also a bit anal when it comes to anglicizing Irish. (IOW, I disapprove of it entirely)

I love those two sentences together.
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Re: The Golden Dawn are taking over Athens
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2012, 07:55:36 am »
I dont understand the appeal of fascism especially where if you ignore the fact that fascism is inherently xenophobic violent and about as unfree as you can get its a really inefficient system of government headed by one guy who is invariably paranoid.

When you've been fucked over by nameless bureaucrats and faceless politicians, the urge to turn everything over to one guy can sometimes seem sane.

Precisely.  Dictators don't just show up one day.  They are advertised for, by a population that is either unwilling or unable to handle the complexities of society.

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