Author Topic: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...  (Read 980 times)

Mangrove

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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2012, 08:42:21 pm »
Although distinctions have been drawn between anti-Semitism as a racialist phenomenon and anti-Judaism (certainly Hitchens relies upon them), in reality it is difficult if not impossible to divorce these two hatreds. It is my contention that Judaism and Semitism are two sides of the same coin. To postulate what I am saying in a positive fashion, I would state that for all practical purposes Semitism is the vehicle of monotheism throughout history and constitutes a proof of Providence-–evidence for God, so to speak. This was achieved because the Jews as a people were receptive to the very words of God Himself, and that they transmitted them to humanity. It was by this mechanism (revelation) that human civilization evolved from paganism and naturalism to monotheism and morality. As I shall strive to prove in what follows, it is my contention that Hitchens’ anti-theism cannot be divorced from his virulent anti-Judaism. Indeed, the latter invariably leads to the former.

I read as far as the above paragraph and gave up. There's too many layers of STOOPID to disentangle right now. I want to come  back to this later once Mrs Mang & I have taken care of all the necessary weekend household crap.

Although distinctions have been drawn between anti-Semitism as a racialist phenomenon and anti-Judaism (certainly Hitchens relies upon them), in reality it is difficult if not impossible to divorce these two hatreds. It is my contention that Judaism and Semitism are two sides of the same coin.

The term anti-Semitism has, in the popular mind, become a synonym for 'anti-Jew'. However, better informed people realize that not all Semitic people are Jews. The author's contention is that Judaism & Semitism are the same thing. My contention is that they are not and if you don't believe me, go ask an Arab who is also a Muslim.

I would state that for all practical purposes Semitism is the vehicle of monotheism throughout history

The Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Christianity & Islam have, indeed been vehicles of monotheism but only in the history of cultures where those religions have significance. If you don't believe me, go ask a Hindu or Buddhist about 'monotheism'. And while we're on the subject of monotheism, the Jews were not the first to postulate it. They were preceded by the Aten cult founded by the deeply unpopular pharoah Akhnaten.

and constitutes a proof of Providence-–evidence for God, so to speak.

The existence of Judaism constitutes proof of the existence of God. Really? So, the existence of Scientology constitutes proof of the existence of the evil galactic Prince Xenu?

This was achieved because the Jews as a people were receptive to the very words of God Himself

Clearly someone who has never read the Old Testament which, seems to be filled with examples whereby the Jews frequently ignored and disobeyed what their 'one god' told them to do hence all the 'smiting' that was going on.

and that they transmitted them to humanity.

Did Judaism really transmit monotheism to humanity? The Roman Empire certainly spread Christian monotheism widely. Muhammed spread Islamic monotheism across the Middle East but is there any historical precedent for a deliberate attempt by Judaic culture to spread it's monotheistic views? At what point in history did the Jews campaign for new members?

It was by this mechanism (revelation) that human civilization evolved from paganism and naturalism to monotheism and morality.

Of course, prior to the Torah and (Judaic) Monotheism, there was absolutely no morality. All those nasty pagans and naturalists were mean, vicious cave dwellers who could not so much as rub two rocks together without succumbing to their bestial desires. No, those Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks & Romans could not ever produce anything that resembled morality, philosophy, law or high culture. Nope. Not at all.

it is my contention that Hitchens’ anti-theism cannot be divorced from his virulent anti-Judaism. Indeed, the latter invariably leads to the former.

What fucking school did you go to? Your contention is that because Christopher Hitchens refused to accept 'God' as described in the Bible, that makes him a racist? Well, this certainly puts me in a pickle. I also don't accept a deity as laid down by the Jews....and neither does my Jewish friend. By this logic, I secretly hate her because I think monotheism is dumb and she must secretly hate herself and her own ethnicity. This will make for interesting discourse next time she's over for dinner.
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2012, 09:04:44 pm »
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2012, 11:47:47 pm »
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”



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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2012, 12:59:23 am »
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2012, 01:11:50 am »
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?

Ashkenazi is a more specific subgrouping within the larger Hebrew grouping. I don't think it qualifies as a separate ethnicity.

Race is fluid and there is no clear division between one and another, regardless of what categories exist on the Census. According to the cultural norms in the United States at this time, I'm Black. I'm way more White and Native American than I am Black, in terms of ancestry, but that's just how it is. Since race is invented, it makes as much (or more) sense for "Semitic" to be a race as it does for me to be "Black". It's a vague category with fuzzy borders.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”



“All that goodness, with a frozen chicken in the middle.”
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2012, 01:13:37 am »
Mormon is definitely an ethnicity, though it's not widely considered one, yet. Most likely that will change within our lifetime.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”



“All that goodness, with a frozen chicken in the middle.”
― Doktor Howl, 2014

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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2012, 05:42:25 am »
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?

Ashkenazi is a more specific subgrouping within the larger Hebrew grouping. I don't think it qualifies as a separate ethnicity.

Race is fluid and there is no clear division between one and another, regardless of what categories exist on the Census. According to the cultural norms in the United States at this time, I'm Black. I'm way more White and Native American than I am Black, in terms of ancestry, but that's just how it is. Since race is invented, it makes as much (or more) sense for "Semitic" to be a race as it does for me to be "Black". It's a vague category with fuzzy borders.

Yeah. Skin color, regardless of the percentages involved, tells very little of the genetic story.

I forgot where I read or heard it, but it was something along the lines of there's these two African tribes in the same general area of Africa. Those two tribes are going to have more genetic similarity to a Norwegian than to each other.

But either way, I dunno, I'd feel more comfortable with there being two different words to express the two different meanings of Jewish, since I think of Jewish referring specifically to religious sentiments. Saying that Carl Sagan was Jewish feels as inaccurate as calling Bill Maher Catholic.

This isn't the first time that I've thought about what Jewish means and basically gotten the same results as feeding "this statement it false" into a computer and asking it to resolve it. It made me want to form a spoof Satanic Jewish band called Dreidel of Filth (also to partially break the monopoly of Christianity on having it's own anti-religion. What would being a Jewish Satanist entail?)
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2012, 05:45:40 am »
(The answer I eventually came up with for that last thought was "someone who worships Canaanite deities in a form of reverse henotheism-all gods are better than this one specific god")
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2012, 05:49:45 am »
Literal Jewish Satanism? That would require that you accept that Ha-Satan is always correct when he brings people's sins to Yahweh's attention, and thus that no one is eligible to enter Heaven. Jewish Satan is a bit less malignant than Christian Satan.

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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2012, 05:55:39 am »
Literal Jewish Satanism? That would require that you accept that Ha-Satan is always correct when he brings people's sins to Yahweh's attention, and thus that no one is eligible to enter Heaven. Jewish Satan is a bit less malignant than Christian Satan.

That's why I figured that it would have to be Canaanite sort of stuff. Or Golden Calf worship.

Satanism here is a convenient word, but the real idea is that of the intentional inversion of a specific religion. Like a really real Satanist and not just some bald atheist with goatee would be a Christian who has thrown his lot in with the devil. There's not really a convenient catch all for an inverted religion other than Satanism. You could say Antitheism, but then that just makes you sound like some bald atheist with a goatee and internet access.
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2012, 05:56:33 am »
Cacolatry.
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2012, 06:06:27 am »
Cacolatry.
WEll, you're right. But I just liked the thought of Literal Jewish Satanism.  :lulz:

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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2012, 06:17:58 am »
Hehe. A forgiving god- but one with a cardassian sense of justice.
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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2012, 04:40:50 pm »
Yeah its pretty easy to divorce judaism and semitism which presumably is belief that one is a semite. (didnt know you had the option of believing that you were an ethnicity. Can i convert to asianism?) i had a friend in high school. I went over his place a few times saw the decor. And yeah his nose was a bit different than mine. I applied the adjective jewish to him once and he promptly corrected me saying he was an agnostic german and that his parents were jewish. And yeah makes sense. Its the only religion people apply simultaneously as an ethnicity even though a gentile may convert as well.

Technically it is an ethnicity, much like Hispanic is an ethnicity and Mormon is an ethnicity and Irish is an ethnicity.

And an argument can be made for the existence of the Semitic race, inasmuch as an argument can be made for the existence of any race.

I suppose, but wouldn't Ashkenazi be a more accurate descriptor for my agnostic friend's ethnicity than Jewish?

As far as Semites, I don't consider that a race at all (again, as far as race exists as based on physical features rather than significant genetic difference). As far as I am aware the census bureau considers European, Middle Eastern, and North African all "caucasian." Considering that my father's been mistaken for a Moroccan before, I can see the sense in doing so.

Mormon is an ethnicity?

Ashkenazi is a more specific subgrouping within the larger Hebrew grouping. I don't think it qualifies as a separate ethnicity.

Race is fluid and there is no clear division between one and another, regardless of what categories exist on the Census. According to the cultural norms in the United States at this time, I'm Black. I'm way more White and Native American than I am Black, in terms of ancestry, but that's just how it is. Since race is invented, it makes as much (or more) sense for "Semitic" to be a race as it does for me to be "Black". It's a vague category with fuzzy borders.

Yeah. Skin color, regardless of the percentages involved, tells very little of the genetic story.

I forgot where I read or heard it, but it was something along the lines of there's these two African tribes in the same general area of Africa. Those two tribes are going to have more genetic similarity to a Norwegian than to each other.

But either way, I dunno, I'd feel more comfortable with there being two different words to express the two different meanings of Jewish, since I think of Jewish referring specifically to religious sentiments. Saying that Carl Sagan was Jewish feels as inaccurate as calling Bill Maher Catholic.

This isn't the first time that I've thought about what Jewish means and basically gotten the same results as feeding "this statement it false" into a computer and asking it to resolve it. It made me want to form a spoof Satanic Jewish band called Dreidel of Filth (also to partially break the monopoly of Christianity on having it's own anti-religion. What would being a Jewish Satanist entail?)

Yes, "race" has next to nothing to do with genetics.

As far as Judaism the religion vs. Hebrew the ethnicity, What about what Jews are comfortable with, or what Jews think? I think that aspect is pretty important. For the most part, the consensus than I am aware of is that there are ethnic Jews and there are religious Jews.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”



“All that goodness, with a frozen chicken in the middle.”
― Doktor Howl, 2014

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Re: If you want to build statues celebrating annoying people...
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2012, 05:08:06 pm »
I suppose thats fair. With the exception of danny my german friend naturally.
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