Author Topic: Mistaking Discordia for other things.  (Read 4741 times)

McGrupp

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2013, 10:07:41 pm »
I agree with you about being wary of using it for a cop-out, which is what many do.

It is not so much that everything is true and false at the same time as that nothing is absolutely true or absolutely false, though they may be so close as to be true or false for practical purposes.

Likewise, reality may or may not be objective (the territory), but how we experience it is subjective (the map) which is why, for the map to be at all useful, we first have to agree on how we will describe features of our experience (consensus).

Also, because how we experience reality is subjective, everything matters a great deal. To someone. I prefer to choose to care about things that affect a great number of people a great deal (humanism), rather than to choose to care about things that affect myself (hedonism).

I am not using anyone else's philosophy for this, it's just my take on things, so please, no one go rattling on about circuits and other occult shit.
This helps clarify things. For some reason whenever I hear any theory about the subjective nature of reality I immediately try to apply it to walking through a solid wall, which I'm pretty sure is a missing the forest for the tree, type situation.


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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2013, 11:43:15 pm »
I agree with you about being wary of using it for a cop-out, which is what many do.

It is not so much that everything is true and false at the same time as that nothing is absolutely true or absolutely false, though they may be so close as to be true or false for practical purposes.

Likewise, reality may or may not be objective (the territory), but how we experience it is subjective (the map) which is why, for the map to be at all useful, we first have to agree on how we will describe features of our experience (consensus).

Also, because how we experience reality is subjective, everything matters a great deal. To someone. I prefer to choose to care about things that affect a great number of people a great deal (humanism), rather than to choose to care about things that affect myself (hedonism).

I am not using anyone else's philosophy for this, it's just my take on things, so please, no one go rattling on about circuits and other occult shit.
This helps clarify things. For some reason whenever I hear any theory about the subjective nature of reality I immediately try to apply it to walking through a solid wall, which I'm pretty sure is a missing the forest for the tree, type situation.
Yeah, it's not so much that reality is subjective as it is that the filters through which we experience reality are unavoidably subjective, so it's not possible to have a non-subjective experience of reality.  When people try to say that reality is subjective, it seems to me that they are mistaking the map for the object that it is a map of.  I notice that Nigel was, as usual, careful in her wording and said "how we experience reality is subjective".  that is an important distinction that I would heartily agree with.

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2013, 03:10:09 am »
Yeah, it's not so much that reality is subjective as it is that the filters through which we experience reality are unavoidably subjective, so it's not possible to have a non-subjective experience of reality.

Unless you're Holy™.
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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2013, 03:43:09 am »
Roger, you're a bad man, and you do bad things.

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2013, 04:11:35 am »
Roger, you're a bad man, and you do bad things.

Arguably, though, I can't help myself.  It ain't easy being a LIVING AVATAR OF SLACK™.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2013, 03:18:29 pm »
I mistook my Discordia for a big but then when I put it, the whole thing everywhere  :sad:
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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2013, 03:54:09 pm »
I agree with you about being wary of using it for a cop-out, which is what many do.

It is not so much that everything is true and false at the same time as that nothing is absolutely true or absolutely false, though they may be so close as to be true or false for practical purposes.

Likewise, reality may or may not be objective (the territory), but how we experience it is subjective (the map) which is why, for the map to be at all useful, we first have to agree on how we will describe features of our experience (consensus).

Also, because how we experience reality is subjective, everything matters a great deal. To someone. I prefer to choose to care about things that affect a great number of people a great deal (humanism), rather than to choose to care about things that affect myself (hedonism).

I am not using anyone else's philosophy for this, it's just my take on things, so please, no one go rattling on about circuits and other occult shit.
This helps clarify things. For some reason whenever I hear any theory about the subjective nature of reality I immediately try to apply it to walking through a solid wall, which I'm pretty sure is a missing the forest for the tree, type situation.

As has been said already, most of the people here consider the perception of reality as subjective, while accepting that there is likely an objective reality somewhere under all the subjectivity. The wall may exist, but an artist may see it as a canvas for their next mural, a construction worker may see it as an important load bearing structure, the revolutionary may see it as that thing to put people up against once the revolution comes.

There's a popular set of memes here: "The Map is not the Territory" or "The Menu is not the Meal" (from General Semantics). Or those with an eastern mystical bent will quote the Master "The road you speak of is not the road you walk on". All of them are basically saying that the thing we describe (or the thing our senses describe to us) is not exactly the actual thing. A Menu may say "Filet de Boeuf" but its not gonna taste like anything like beef. A Map may have a blue squiggle line, but no matter how hard you try, you won't catch any fish in the blue squiggle.

The reality we experience is processed through our neurological instruments, then filtered through our reality tunnel (the accumulation of beliefs, knowledge and experiences we have had so far in our life). The result is our subjective interpretation of whatever the hell it was that objectively existed before we got hold of it.

For me, I find Discordianism to fit very well with Absurdism. There can be a meaning to existence, but its one we create. Its value is the value we give it and it seems to require looking into the Void, accepting that Eris is there ordering and disordering things (in some sense) and our subjective reality is ours to experience, manipulate and control. Maybe we are humanist, maybe we are hedonist, maybe we bounce back and forth between them, but objectively, none of those options are "Right" or "Wrong".

Subjectively, other people might consider you to be an asshole though, depending on which options you decide on.  :lulz:
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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2013, 03:56:22 pm »
Objective reality is what you fucking trip over when you walk around with your eyes closed.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2013, 05:30:12 pm »
Objective reality is what you fucking trip over when you walk around with your eyes closed.

No. It isn't.  The thing you fall over is, by definition, a "thing"; it is a "chair" or a "rug" or a "dog", in other words it is an actual physical object which has a causal relationship to your fall.

"Objective reality", by contrast is a meta-concept.
If the answer is Donald J Trump then it must have been a fucking stupid question.
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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2013, 05:50:04 pm »
Nice job killing the thread.

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2013, 05:53:08 pm »
Nice job killing the thread.

Thank you, its always nice to be appreciated
If the answer is Donald J Trump then it must have been a fucking stupid question.
Trump cultists; "and some, I assume, are good people"
Collusion??? ~ "If it truly was a nothingburger, there’s nothing here, why not open the kimono?”

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2013, 05:53:27 pm »
Objective reality is what you fucking trip over when you walk around with your eyes closed.

No. It isn't.  The thing you fall over is, by definition, a "thing"; it is a "chair" or a "rug" or a "dog", in other words it is an actual physical object which has a causal relationship to your fall.

"Objective reality", by contrast is a meta-concept.

Oh, well, if we're just gonna make up new definitions of common place terms, "Objective Reality" is my poop.

Argumentum ad scat.

Thread over.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

insideout

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2013, 08:15:58 pm »
Objective reality is what you fucking trip over when you walk around with your eyes closed.

No. It isn't.  The thing you fall over is, by definition, a "thing"; it is a "chair" or a "rug" or a "dog", in other words it is an actual physical object which has a causal relationship to your fall.

"Objective reality", by contrast is a meta-concept.

I think this calls for a quote from the movie Dumb and Dumber:
Lloyd: This didn't come out of our travel fund.
Harry: Oh.
Lloyd: Yeah, I was able to raise 25 extra bucks before we left.
Harry: Where did you get 25 extra bucks?
Lloyd: I sold some stuff, to Billy Enforsee.
Harry: The blind kid?
Lloyd: [Laughing] Yeah, yeah.
Harry: What did you sell him Lloyd?
Lloyd: You know, stuff.
Harry: What kinda stuff?
Lloyd: Few baseball cards, a sack of marbles, (coughs) Petey.
Harry: Petey? You sold my dead bird to a blind kid? Lloyd, wh- he- wha- Petey didn't even have a head!
Lloyd: Harry, I took care of it.

McGrupp

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2013, 10:06:18 pm »
I agree with you about being wary of using it for a cop-out, which is what many do.

It is not so much that everything is true and false at the same time as that nothing is absolutely true or absolutely false, though they may be so close as to be true or false for practical purposes.

Likewise, reality may or may not be objective (the territory), but how we experience it is subjective (the map) which is why, for the map to be at all useful, we first have to agree on how we will describe features of our experience (consensus).

Also, because how we experience reality is subjective, everything matters a great deal. To someone. I prefer to choose to care about things that affect a great number of people a great deal (humanism), rather than to choose to care about things that affect myself (hedonism).

I am not using anyone else's philosophy for this, it's just my take on things, so please, no one go rattling on about circuits and other occult shit.
This helps clarify things. For some reason whenever I hear any theory about the subjective nature of reality I immediately try to apply it to walking through a solid wall, which I'm pretty sure is a missing the forest for the tree, type situation.

As has been said already, most of the people here consider the perception of reality as subjective, while accepting that there is likely an objective reality somewhere under all the subjectivity. The wall may exist, but an artist may see it as a canvas for their next mural, a construction worker may see it as an important load bearing structure, the revolutionary may see it as that thing to put people up against once the revolution comes.

There's a popular set of memes here: "The Map is not the Territory" or "The Menu is not the Meal" (from General Semantics). Or those with an eastern mystical bent will quote the Master "The road you speak of is not the road you walk on". All of them are basically saying that the thing we describe (or the thing our senses describe to us) is not exactly the actual thing. A Menu may say "Filet de Boeuf" but its not gonna taste like anything like beef. A Map may have a blue squiggle line, but no matter how hard you try, you won't catch any fish in the blue squiggle.

The reality we experience is processed through our neurological instruments, then filtered through our reality tunnel (the accumulation of beliefs, knowledge and experiences we have had so far in our life). The result is our subjective interpretation of whatever the hell it was that objectively existed before we got hold of it.

For me, I find Discordianism to fit very well with Absurdism. There can be a meaning to existence, but its one we create. Its value is the value we give it and it seems to require looking into the Void, accepting that Eris is there ordering and disordering things (in some sense) and our subjective reality is ours to experience, manipulate and control. Maybe we are humanist, maybe we are hedonist, maybe we bounce back and forth between them, but objectively, none of those options are "Right" or "Wrong".

Subjectively, other people might consider you to be an asshole though, depending on which options you decide on.  :lulz:
I can't believe I didn't make the connection between Emperor Norton and this until about 5 minutes ago. No wonder he's revered.

I think the reason my brain tries to rebel against such ideas is that I'm so used to having rules and asking questions such as 'Am I doing it right?' or "Am I viewing this correctly?" That when you take that away my mind instantly tries to tell me that such a framework is invalid.

That's what draws me in, the fact that the chair of outside validation and authority that I've been trained to try to sit in is the very chair that keeps being kicked out from under me.

(Okay, actually Pinealism and the notion that Discordians would have livelier parties than the Nihilists is what drew me in, but the chair thing is what I find truly fascinating)

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Re: Mistaking Discordia for other things.
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 06:49:17 am »
Welcome to the Illuminati  :lulz: :fnord: (& you're right, we have much better parties  :wink:)
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