Author Topic: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"  (Read 4748 times)

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2013, 02:14:31 am »
"A man glued to the ceiling is going to tell you the couch is closer to the sky, but let's look at things from the floor for a moment..."

Then, get them unbelievably drunk.

Once drunk and the room is spinning, ask them to put their foot on the floor for a minute. After a time, make them put their foot on the ceiling (may require low ceilings or clever monkeys) for a minute. Ask them which one makes the room stop spinning.

If they throw up on themselves with their leg in the air, they'll never mention it again. There are interesting ways of looking at things aplenty, but only the real one makes the room stop spinning.

I think I like this.

It fucked my head up.  I looked at it, and saw "word salad/phony zen shit", then I read it, and it was awesome.

My expectations were not met.

I feel like my America™ has in some strange way been violated.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2013, 10:25:57 am »
What you say: "I know you think X is true, but X is actually not true."

What they hear: "The person who told you that X is true lied to you. They're a lying liar who is filling your head with lies."

What they reply: "No way, X is definitely true, how dare you!"



The challenge: What techniques can be employed to get around this response?

I know you think X is true. But there is some information (P, D, Q, B, A, C, H) which appears to disagree with the truth of X I'm not saying that X IS NOT true. I'm just saying that if X is true then you must also account for PDQ BACH and no one has ever been able to account for them.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2013, 03:43:11 pm »
What you say: "I know you think X is true, but X is actually not true."

What they hear: "The person who told you that X is true lied to you. They're a lying liar who is filling your head with lies."

What they reply: "No way, X is definitely true, how dare you!"



The challenge: What techniques can be employed to get around this response?

I know you think X is true. But there is some information (P, D, Q, B, A, C, H) which appears to disagree with the truth of X I'm not saying that X IS NOT true. I'm just saying that if X is true then you must also account for PDQ BACH and no one has ever been able to account for them.

AH HAET YEW.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Reginald Ret

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2013, 01:16:17 am »
What you say: "I know you think X is true, but X is actually not true."

What they hear: "The person who told you that X is true lied to you. They're a lying liar who is filling your head with lies."

What they reply: "No way, X is definitely true, how dare you!"



The challenge: What techniques can be employed to get around this response?

I know you think X is true. But there is some information (P, D, Q, B, A, C, H) which appears to disagree with the truth of X I'm not saying that X IS NOT true. I'm just saying that if X is true then you must also account for PDQ BACH and no one has ever been able to account for them.

AH HAET YEW.
My response to thatwould be: That is OK, your hate does not make you less wrong.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

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Wisa1

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2013, 02:34:04 am »
One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

 In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ
This has proven the most effective method for me so far
the socratic approach!  :) I did that with my highschool students when i was tutoring, works for maths-related subjects but i never got it to work on anything else. maybe i have issues with applying logic to reality.
you just gotta push a little further, if you can't get their apparently flawed hypothesis to breaking point then maybe it is your own assumptions you should be questioning
"As I treks through the cesspit I sharps up my wit"
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2013, 02:40:57 am »
One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

 In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ
This has proven the most effective method for me so far
the socratic approach!  :) I did that with my highschool students when i was tutoring, works for maths-related subjects but i never got it to work on anything else. maybe i have issues with applying logic to reality.
you just gotta push a little further, if you can't get their apparently flawed hypothesis to breaking point then maybe it is your own assumptions you should be questioning

WISA1 IS HERE TO TELL EVERYONE THEY'RE DOIN' IT WRONG.  SO EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Wisa1

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2013, 02:53:29 am »
One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

 In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ
This has proven the most effective method for me so far
the socratic approach!  :) I did that with my highschool students when i was tutoring, works for maths-related subjects but i never got it to work on anything else. maybe i have issues with applying logic to reality.
you just gotta push a little further, if you can't get their apparently flawed hypothesis to breaking point then maybe it is your own assumptions you should be questioning

WISA1 IS HERE TO TELL EVERYONE THEY'RE DOIN' IT WRONG.  SO EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION.
actually don't I'm just another drunk asshole who thinks he's right
"As I treks through the cesspit I sharps up my wit"
"We dont wanna be, we just be"
-Roots Manuva

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2013, 02:55:18 am »
One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

 In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ
This has proven the most effective method for me so far
the socratic approach!  :) I did that with my highschool students when i was tutoring, works for maths-related subjects but i never got it to work on anything else. maybe i have issues with applying logic to reality.
you just gotta push a little further, if you can't get their apparently flawed hypothesis to breaking point then maybe it is your own assumptions you should be questioning

WISA1 IS HERE TO TELL EVERYONE THEY'RE DOIN' IT WRONG.  SO EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION.
actually don't I'm just another drunk asshole who thinks he's right

Change your avatar right fucking now, or you're out on your ass.  You have 5 minutes from the date/time stamp of this post.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Tiddleywomp Cockletit

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2013, 03:29:48 am »
Snatchman's gone?
Good.
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Odibex Grallspice

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2013, 07:21:40 pm »
I never try to get people to change their opinion about anything ever.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2013, 08:01:06 pm »
One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

 In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ
This has proven the most effective method for me so far
the socratic approach!  :) I did that with my highschool students when i was tutoring, works for maths-related subjects but i never got it to work on anything else. maybe i have issues with applying logic to reality.
you just gotta push a little further, if you can't get their apparently flawed hypothesis to breaking point then maybe it is your own assumptions you should be questioning

WISA1 IS HERE TO TELL EVERYONE THEY'RE DOIN' IT WRONG.  SO EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION.
actually don't I'm just another drunk asshole who thinks he's right

Change your avatar right fucking now, or you're out on your ass.  You have 5 minutes from the date/time stamp of this post.

What did he have up?
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Odibex Grallspice

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2013, 08:14:23 pm »
Al Gore's senior pic?

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2013, 08:30:33 pm »
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: "But So-and-so wouldn't lie to me!"
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2013, 09:03:41 pm »
One method of teaching something to someone is to let them them persist in their folly until they encounter their error firsthand. Agree with them, take them by the hand and have them skip beside you down the path of their own flawed logic, and smile as that path leads them into the scary forest of error and doubt, and then point out how dark everything is all the sudden, how pointy and menacing the trees look, and whether or not those are eyes watching us from the bushes, all the while smiling. take them further down the path than they've ever thought to go. Then laugh maniacally as they quit the path to go sprinting towards reason.

 In practice it's a bit like resorting to reductio ad absurdum, only you don't take it to a ridiculous extreme, jsut to the point where the flaws in their case become unavoidably obvious.

not-the-exact-one-i-wanted-yet-still-relevant link:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WUXodFgbDfQ
This has proven the most effective method for me so far
the socratic approach!  :) I did that with my highschool students when i was tutoring, works for maths-related subjects but i never got it to work on anything else. maybe i have issues with applying logic to reality.
you just gotta push a little further, if you can't get their apparently flawed hypothesis to breaking point then maybe it is your own assumptions you should be questioning

WISA1 IS HERE TO TELL EVERYONE THEY'RE DOIN' IT WRONG.  SO EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION.
actually don't I'm just another drunk asshole who thinks he's right

Change your avatar right fucking now, or you're out on your ass.  You have 5 minutes from the date/time stamp of this post.

What did he have up?

Blatant pussy shot.  Like off of Redtube.

We only have 6 rules, FFS.  How hard is it?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Odibex Grallspice

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