Author Topic: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?  (Read 20534 times)

Random Probability

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Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« on: January 23, 2014, 12:35:09 am »
Lots of fun and games going on in Ukraine.  I'm not sure how much is on Prime Time (since I don't have TV), but things are starting to get really interesting.

For instance, take this new development.

A few highlights:
Quote
PROTESTERS were massing when, suddenly, thousands of cell-phones chimed in unison: "Dear subscriber … you are a participant in a mass disturbance". It's real. It just happened in Ukraine.


Among the draconian measures introduced this week are:
-Participating in "mass disruptions" will incur 10-15 years imprisonment

-You can be convicted by a court in absentia

-MPs can be arrested during sessions of parliament

-It is forbidden to drive a car in a column larger than five vehicles long.

-It is illegal to set up an unauthorised sound system

-You will be jailed for 15 days if you put up a tent

-Distributing "extremist opinion" will attract a three-year jail term

-Group violation of public orders will land you in the cooler for two years

-The government can disable the internet at will

-Many are interpreting the moves as a deliberate attempt to incite unrest in order to invoke even more extreme legislation.

The opposition leader looks like he knows his days are numbered.
Quote
``Tomorrow we will go forward together,'' Yatsenyuk told a crowd of tens of thousands of demonstrators. ``And if it's a bullet in the forehead, then it's a bullet in the forehead, but in an honest, fair and brave way.''

After a comment like that, though, I doubt he'll be shot, which is probably why Yanukovych added that bit about arresting MPs.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2014, 01:47:08 am »
I just started paying attention to this today.  It's fucking grim.
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Lenin McCarthy

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 02:00:53 am »
Wow. That mass SMS is creepy stuff.

The posts (and further links) in this thread
are probably helpful.






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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2014, 05:23:29 am »
innit safe, fam?

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2014, 05:53:31 am »
This is disgusting, and I fully expect Anonymous or some such bunch of Internet hooligans to devise ways to foil and evade technology that allows this kind of shit to happen. If they don't, they'll be proving their uselessness to the resistance.

And not that this applies directly to Ukraine, but I have become convinced that in addition to having what amounts to tribute/serf states and pools of slave labor, one of the main reasons the US tends to prop up awful regimes throughout the world is to field-test theories and practices in the most effective way to implement absolute rule.
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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 08:05:12 am »
...one of the main reasons the US tends to prop up awful regimes throughout the world is to field-test theories and practices in the most effective way to implement absolute rule.

That's a disturbing thought.
I figured it was just that resources, human and otherwise, are easier to extract cheaply with corrupt bastards in power; and that it didn't go farther than that...
 Until now... :eek:
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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 08:54:06 am »
The protests have been bubbling for a while and have been getting increasingly nasty. From what I gather, everyone involved in them seems to understand that the EU's not exactly perfect and neither is Russia, but more would rather be in be with Merkel than Putin.

By "getting nasty", I'm told that it's been a favourite trick of the protesters to spray cops with water. Which may not sound serious but when it's freezing outside....

The main plus side I can see to all this is a lot of people will now have an incentive to create a communications system somehow separate from current existing infrastructures.
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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 09:44:04 am »
The majority of people may want to be in the EU, but the majority of people also disagree with the protests:

Quote
Polling from late December shows that while 43% of Ukrainians do want to join the European Union now (13 points higher than any other option), fully 50% of Ukrainians do not support the Kiev protests. That latter statistic marks a turnaround in Ukraine’s tolerance for the protest—only weeks prior a majority had supported them. More significantly, only 31% of Ukrainians believe that the outcome of the protests will be positive for Ukraine.

Today’s violent protests may only strengthen ordinary Ukrainians’ desire to see an end to the bedlam. Many are only too happy to trade freedoms that they rarely use for peace and quiet. Cognizant that, in a nation where stability sells, events like today’s do not acquit the opposition forces well, the movement’s leaders have called on protestors to refrain from violence. They warn that many of the angry young men in the street are provocateurs paid by Yanukovych’s party to create chaos and turn the tide of public opinion fully against the protest movement.

But many of the protest movement are also aligned with Ukraine's nationalist/fascist parties, who are not exactly shy about using violence or their aim to topple the regime either.  And given the previous role of the CIA in sponsoring mass civil disobedience in Ukraine, it is not entirely unlikely that elements within the CIA or another western intelligence agency (BND, MI6) are helping support these protests.

When a regime's back is against the wall, they'll do stupid shit.  This isn't news.  In fact, it's probably being counted on.

The problem is, if Ukraine moves into the EU sphere of influence, it cannot be kept there.  The demographics and geography of the country wont allow it, and Russian intransigence means Ukraine will be an economic basket case.  Of course, admitting that means admitting limits on European and American power and influence, which is almost heresy in those respective governments.

Supporting these protests, while it may be done with the most noble of intentions, is pretty irresponsible.  Nothing done in Ukraine will change Russia's views, and it's their opinion that matters.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 09:48:10 am by Cain »

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 12:13:31 pm »
By "getting nasty", I'm told that it's been a favourite trick of the protesters to spray cops with water. Which may not sound serious but when it's freezing outside....
It still isn't if the cops just go home to put on dry clothes, or go inside somewhere. It is a perfectly peaceful way of breaking a blockade. If their bosses decide to fire them for protecting their own health by going somewhere warmer then the bosses are dicks.
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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 12:55:21 pm »
Let me make this perfectly clear - I think the use of water by protesters is clever and ballsy as hell. The water cannon has been a riot control favourite for many years and the whole use against police is covered in delicious irony.

That said, being piss wet through in freezing conditions can become deadly quickly. And we all know how police react to any injury on their side. You're not going to get the police on your side if you actually harm them.

I've been thinking a little more about the technology mentioned at the start of the thread. I assume it's already easy enough to pull of something similar in other nations. Got a horrible feeling we will see more of this kind of thing soon. Greece, maybe? I would have considered Egypt as a potential adopter but I'm not sure if the tech is able to distinguish between loyal activists and evil protesters. As a lot of demonstrations usually have an opposing demo going on nearby, it could be quite amusing to see pro-X supporters being told that they're attending a mass disruption and must now go to jail. 
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 02:02:47 pm »
Orwellian texts, a wall of fire, broadcated live on the Internet, slogans projected on the wall by lasers - this world is getting more cyberpunk by the minute.
innit safe, fam?

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2014, 02:11:29 pm »
Let me make this perfectly clear - I think the use of water by protesters is clever and ballsy as hell. The water cannon has been a riot control favourite for many years and the whole use against police is covered in delicious irony.

That said, being piss wet through in freezing conditions can become deadly quickly. And we all know how police react to any injury on their side. You're not going to get the police on your side if you actually harm them.

If the police are hitting you in the head with clubs and/or shooting at you, they are not on your side.
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- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2014, 02:29:20 pm »
That's a given. That said, Police having any of their own injured or killed seems to lead to bad shit for everyone who isn't a police officer. I bet a decent part of the populations problem with the protests is that they're uninvolved/uncaring and still have to put up with a lot of shit in the aftermath.

Bad times off the starboard bow.
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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2014, 02:34:51 pm »
I heard from a native Russian speaking acquaintance of mine that the riot police had been ordered not to fight back.

Which of course leads to a situation of either riot police standing their ground and taking a drubbing from violent protestors, or else riot police deciding to ignore their orders and pre-empt any would-be attackers.

Those orders, if that is in fact the case (the friend in question is something of a Slavophile/Eurasianist) could be part of the government's outrreach to protestors, with the Prime Minister stating he is willing to negotiate and compromise.  Taking a lighter hand and letting the protestors discredit themselves is not an entirely terrible tactic.

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Re: Anybody look at Ukraine lately?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2014, 02:43:49 pm »
It also allows you to push further extreme measures when you take the magnanimous stance. An empty police vehicle left in the middle of the protest zone will get burnt out sooner or later and serves to mainly to justify exactly these types of controls. It isn't unheard of for certain London forces to leave their older vehicles empty in the middle of a kettle. It's a good move. Not only do you get to discredit the protest, you can claim on the insurance for a brand new vehicle.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.